(January 4, 2022 at 6:47 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(January 4, 2022 at 6:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam, and how can you square this with ‘no compulsion in religion’?

Boru

Winter rejects hadiths precisely because he rejects the penalty for apostasy (capital punishment), which does exist in Islam. Apostasy is not merely leaving religion, there is also the intent to spread disorder and threaten social cohesion (in a Muslim nation-state), it's equivalent to treason in common law.

The Ottoman empire lasted for more or less 600 years, and there is no reported case of applying this penalty, mainly because it's extremely difficult to prove it in court.

It doesn’t much matter that capital punishment for apostasy is rarely applied, or even that capital punishment is the penalty. And without even considering the Hadiths, it’s pretty plain that God is going to punish apostates, your comments about disorder and social cohesion aside.

If the threat of punishment isn’t compulsion then what is?

Oh, dear - have I uncovered a contradiction in your holy of holies?

Boru

(December 24, 2021 at 10:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Gee, I wonder why it might be that you find yourself in such a shitty situation?  What is saudi society and governance organized around, again?

Such a limited list magic book has, it only accounts for the majority of people on earth.

You don't know shit..and worse, you can't know shit.  It's beyond you.  Fried by a superstition and the people who hold it.

Sadly to your argument, the list is very short and here it is:

Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
https://quran.com/6:151?store=false&translations=

(151) Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Come! Let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden to you: do not associate others with Him ˹in worship˺. ˹Do not fail to˺ honour your parents. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for you and for them. Do not come near indecencies, openly or secretly. Do not take a ˹human˺ life—made sacred by Allah—except with ˹legal˺ right.1 This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will understand.

(152) And do not come near the wealth of the orphan—unless intending to enhance it—until they attain maturity. Give full measure and weigh with justice. We never require of any soul more than what it can afford. Whenever you speak,1 maintain justice—even regarding a close relative. And fulfil your covenant with Allah. This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will be mindful.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

That is the list the Quran provides.
Any "sin" prohibited by the Quran falls into one of these categories.

But the Hadith books invented thousands of pages as a list.

---

(January 4, 2022 at 6:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 24, 2021 at 3:48 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Believe me I know a lot. I'm a person who lived his whole life as a slave, a second-class citizen with no right to start a business or work freely, my fate is always at the hands of a Saudi native, an inmate of this desert prison called Saudi Arabia,.
I'm no soldier, but tougher than soldiers. That kind of life does permanent longterm mutations to your soul.

As for the list of the Quran; no believe me its very limited; these two verses make it so:



and

What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam, and how can you square this with ‘no compulsion in religion’?

Boru

None, there is no penalty !
But in the afterlife the disbeliever will go to hell:

Quote:Sura 16, The Quran:
https://quran.com/16:106?store=false&translations=

(106) Whoever disbelieves in Allah after their belief—not those who are forced while their hearts are firm in faith,1 but those who embrace disbelief wholeheartedly—they will be condemned by Allah and suffer a tremendous punishment.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

But in this life, there shall be no compulsion in the acceptance of the religion.

(January 5, 2022 at 7:49 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(December 24, 2021 at 10:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Gee, I wonder why it might be that you find yourself in such a shitty situation?  What is saudi society and governance organized around, again?

Such a limited list magic book has, it only accounts for the majority of people on earth.

You don't know shit..and worse, you can't know shit.  It's beyond you.  Fried by a superstition and the people who hold it.

Sadly to your argument, the list is very short and here it is:

Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
https://quran.com/6:151?store=false&translations=

(151) Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Come! Let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden to you: do not associate others with Him ˹in worship˺. ˹Do not fail to˺ honour your parents. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for you and for them. Do not come near indecencies, openly or secretly. Do not take a ˹human˺ life—made sacred by Allah—except with ˹legal˺ right.1 This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will understand.

(152) And do not come near the wealth of the orphan—unless intending to enhance it—until they attain maturity. Give full measure and weigh with justice. We never require of any soul more than what it can afford. Whenever you speak,1 maintain justice—even regarding a close relative. And fulfil your covenant with Allah. This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will be mindful.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

That is the list the Quran provides.
Any "sin" prohibited by the Quran falls into one of these categories.

But the Hadith books invented thousands of pages as a list.

Is lying about magic book a sin?

(January 5, 2022 at 7:49 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(December 24, 2021 at 10:43 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Gee, I wonder why it might be that you find yourself in such a shitty situation?  What is saudi society and governance organized around, again?

Such a limited list magic book has, it only accounts for the majority of people on earth.

You don't know shit..and worse, you can't know shit.  It's beyond you.  Fried by a superstition and the people who hold it.

Sadly to your argument, the list is very short and here it is:

Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
https://quran.com/6:151?store=false&translations=

(151) Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Come! Let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden to you: do not associate others with Him ˹in worship˺. ˹Do not fail to˺ honour your parents. Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for you and for them. Do not come near indecencies, openly or secretly. Do not take a ˹human˺ life—made sacred by Allah—except with ˹legal˺ right.1 This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will understand.

(152) And do not come near the wealth of the orphan—unless intending to enhance it—until they attain maturity. Give full measure and weigh with justice. We never require of any soul more than what it can afford. Whenever you speak,1 maintain justice—even regarding a close relative. And fulfil your covenant with Allah. This is what He has commanded you, so perhaps you will be mindful.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

That is the list the Quran provides.
Any "sin" prohibited by the Quran falls into one of these categories.

But the Hadith books invented thousands of pages as a list.

---

(January 4, 2022 at 6:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam, and how can you square this with ‘no compulsion in religion’?

Boru

None, there is no penalty !
But in the afterlife the disbeliever will go to hell:

Quote:Sura 16, The Quran:
https://quran.com/16:106?store=false&translations=

(106) Whoever disbelieves in Allah after their belief—not those who are forced while their hearts are firm in faith,1 but those who embrace disbelief wholeheartedly—they will be condemned by Allah and suffer a tremendous punishment.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

But in this life, there shall be no compulsion in the acceptance of the religion.

Going to hell isn’t a penalty?

Boru

(January 5, 2022 at 10:58 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(January 5, 2022 at 7:49 am)WinterHold Wrote: Sadly to your argument, the list is very short and here it is:


That is the list the Quran provides.
Any "sin" prohibited by the Quran falls into one of these categories.

But the Hadith books invented thousands of pages as a list.

Is lying about magic book a sin?

Of course it is a huge sin, and falls under this category from the verse I quoted:

Quote:Whenever you speak,1 maintain justice

Is counterfeiting and lying about anything considered "speaking with justice" ?

---

(January 5, 2022 at 12:52 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(January 5, 2022 at 7:49 am)WinterHold Wrote: Sadly to your argument, the list is very short and here it is:



That is the list the Quran provides.
Any "sin" prohibited by the Quran falls into one of these categories.

But the Hadith books invented thousands of pages as a list.

---

None, there is no penalty !
But in the afterlife the disbeliever will go to hell:



But in this life, there shall be no compulsion in the acceptance of the religion.

Going to hell isn’t a penalty?

Boru

But a nonbeliever doesn't believe in God; so promises of damnation after death shouldn't bother them, if they really "didn't believe in anything".

(January 5, 2022 at 1:09 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(January 5, 2022 at 10:58 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Is lying about magic book a sin?

Of course it is a huge sin, and falls under this category from the verse I quoted:

Quote:Whenever you speak,1 maintain justice

Is counterfeiting and lying about anything considered "speaking with justice" ?

---

(January 5, 2022 at 12:52 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Going to hell isn’t a penalty?

Boru

But a nonbeliever doesn't believe in God; so promises of damnation after death shouldn't bother them, if they really "didn't believe in anything".

You persist in missing the point. God, via his threat of punishment, is attempting to compel people into believing. So, the statement ‘there is no compulsion is religion’ is utter bollocks (it is immaterial the the compulsion doesn’t work on non-believers). Furthermore, nothing in the scriptures you quoted says or implies that the punishment will take place after the apostate dies.

This tactic is by no means unique to Islam.

Boru

(January 5, 2022 at 1:09 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(January 5, 2022 at 10:58 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Is lying about magic book a sin?

Of course it is a huge sin, and falls under this category from the verse I quoted:

Then you might want to consult your witchdoctor asap.

(January 5, 2022 at 1:09 pm)WinterHold Wrote: But a nonbeliever doesn't believe in God; so promises of damnation after death shouldn't bother them, if they really "didn't believe in anything."

No one likes being threatened, Winter, and to be on the receiving end of a threat generally results in an unhealthy physical reaction as the neuroendocrine system in the body reacts to it.

I hold you personally responsible for uttering threats. You, not your hypothetical god.

Exactly so. Behind every pious piece of shit uttering gods dire warnings is a pervert yanking his dick to the fantasy.

(January 4, 2022 at 7:25 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:  it’s pretty plain that God is going to punish apostates, your comments about disorder and social cohesion aside.

No, it isn't plain, really. Someone can leave religion because he sincerely (but wrongly) thought it was a false religion, for example. God being just in Islam wouldn't punish this person.

There is an authentic hadith where a married woman who committed adultery willingly comes to the Islamic prophet and asks him to apply the penalty (which is stoning to death), the prophet repeatedly rejects her request and asks her to repent privately to God - which is a clear sign that unless adultery or apostasy is provable in court, no penalty is applied-. After the woman insisted and her affair became known, the penalty was eventually applied and the woman was killed as prescribed in the Islamic law. The prophet then told his companions she's going to heaven, and prayed for the deceased woman.

---

(January 5, 2022 at 8:22 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(January 5, 2022 at 1:09 pm)WinterHold Wrote: But a nonbeliever doesn't believe in God; so promises of damnation after death shouldn't bother them, if they really "didn't believe in anything."

No one likes being threatened, Winter, and to be on the receiving end of a threat generally results in an unhealthy physical reaction as the neuroendocrine system in the body reacts to it.

I hold you personally responsible for uttering threats. You, not your hypothetical god.

The threat of hell is similar to the threat of dying if one jumps from the 102th floor of the Empire State builiding, or if one bites into a cyanide tablet. God tells x not to dishonestly deny Him, but x goes ahead and does it, x doesn't really have the right to complain, since x is not really in charge of the universe.