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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 21, 2011 at 9:14 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2011 at 10:25 pm by Anymouse.)
(October 24, 2011 at 6:58 am)lucent Wrote: God didn't create evil. If you check the bible, there is only one place that God is creating anything, which is at the beginning of Genesis. When God finished creation, it was "very good".
... rest deleted for brevity ...
Well this is a very late response to a very early post to this thread (way back on page one), but it is amazing the number of Christians one runs into that claim "God did not create evil." So once again I quote from the Bible (which is the best defence for a Wiccan or an athiest):
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)
That seems pretty clear. Even for those who claim the Bible is allegory or not literal, that sentence is pretty hard to take any other way.
James, on the Left side of Nebraska.
Edit note: I see after I posted this someone else posted the same thing, though far more completely than me. Oh well, it bears repeating. Often. Because the verse (regardless of version) cannot be adequately refuted other than by claiming it means something else than what it is printed there.
"Be ye not lost amongst Precept of Order." - Book of Uterus, 1:5, "Principia Discordia, or How I Found Goddess and What I Did to Her When I Found Her."
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 22, 2011 at 1:18 pm
(October 23, 2011 at 3:35 pm)IATIA Wrote: Why did god create the 'talking snake'? Did he not know what would happen?
How did the 'talking snake' get into the garden? Was god not watching?
This god must have known the 'talking snake' was more powerful than Eve and that Eve had no chance. So this must have been a setup from the get go. The snake represents deception, Sneakiness, lies. Also one's own character, as---you snake in the grass. Hidden, not seen. A purposeful misrepresentation of one's self. Businesses, religions and government rely on it.
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 22, 2011 at 8:43 pm
(November 22, 2011 at 1:18 pm)Old Seer Wrote: The snake represents deception, Sneakiness, lies. Also one's own character, as---you snake in the grass. Hidden, not seen. A purposeful misrepresentation of one's self. Businesses, religions and government rely on it. Another follower of the
RULES OF BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION: TATION: TATION: TATION:
- If it proves their point, it is literal.
- If it is contradictory, it is out of context.
- If it is ridiculous, it is symbolic.
- If all else fails, twist the words around and reinterpret.
- And then of course, "goddidit"
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 22, 2011 at 10:31 pm
(This post was last modified: November 22, 2011 at 10:36 pm by Old Seer.)
(November 22, 2011 at 8:43 pm)IATIA Wrote: (November 22, 2011 at 1:18 pm)Old Seer Wrote: The snake represents deception, Sneakiness, lies. Also one's own character, as---you snake in the grass. Hidden, not seen. A purposeful misrepresentation of one's self. Businesses, religions and government rely on it. Another follower of the
RULES OF BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION: TATION: TATION: TATION:
- If it proves their point, it is literal.
- If it is contradictory, it is out of context.
- If it is ridiculous, it is symbolic.
- If all else fails, twist the words around and reinterpret.
- And then of course, "goddidit"
I am not a Theist, Deist, or Atheist. I am not a Christian. I belong to no publicly known religion. I am an Alpha Guardian. One of a body of scientists in many fields. I am the interpreter of words and meaning on the team.
(November 22, 2011 at 10:31 pm)Old Seer Wrote: (November 22, 2011 at 8:43 pm)IATIA Wrote: (November 22, 2011 at 1:18 pm)Old Seer Wrote: The snake represents deception, Sneakiness, lies. Also one's own character, as---you snake in the grass. Hidden, not seen. A purposeful misrepresentation of one's self. Businesses, religions and government rely on it. Another follower of the
RULES OF BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION: TATION: TATION: TATION:
- If it proves their point, it is literal.
- If it is contradictory, it is out of context.
- If it is ridiculous, it is symbolic.
- If all else fails, twist the words around and reinterpret.
- And then of course, "goddidit"
I am not a Theist, Deist, or Atheist. I am not a Christian. I belong to no publicly known religion. I am an Alpha Guardian. One of a body of scientists in many fields. I am the interpreter of words and meaning on the team. And no
we don't follow the your rules of biblical interpretation.
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 22, 2011 at 11:49 pm
(November 22, 2011 at 10:31 pm)Old Seer Wrote: The snake represents deception, Sneakiness, lies. Also one's own character, as---you snake in the grass. Hidden, not seen. A purposeful misrepresentation of one's self. Businesses, religions and government rely on it.
And no
we don't follow the your rules of biblical interpretation.
You have taken the ridiculous story of a talking serpent in the garden and identified it through symbolism. Rule #3.
There is not any thing explicitly wrong with identifying and understanding the symbolism of a story and even applying it in everyday life. But, the unasked question remains. Do you believe the bible is history or fairy tale?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 23, 2011 at 1:11 am
(November 22, 2011 at 11:49 pm)IATIA Wrote: (November 22, 2011 at 10:31 pm)Old Seer Wrote: The snake represents deception, Sneakiness, lies. Also one's own character, as---you snake in the grass. Hidden, not seen. A purposeful misrepresentation of one's self. Businesses, religions and government rely on it.
And no
we don't follow the your rules of biblical interpretation.
You have taken the ridiculous story of a talking serpent in the garden and identified it through symbolism. Rule #3.
There is not any thing explicitly wrong with identifying and understanding the symbolism of a story and even applying it in everyday life. But, the unasked question remains. Do you believe the bible is history or fairy tale? It is the history of a people in a particular place, written by them. The Israelis still use it today. To scholars it is a strange writing that they don't understand. Scholars look for Israelite history by other means because the writings don't conform to normal thinking. The book is Middle Eastern thought that is different then Western civilizations. There-in lay most of the problems to understand it. We've concluded that the Israelis them selves have lost it's meaning. The book is not much different then other ancient tribes and writings of that region. It's not fairy tales, it's simply the interpretations that are faulty. Ancient peoples didn't have words to describe spiritual things so they used material representations and labels. What's happened is- there lives, means and thought process are quite different the our of today. IE- they didn't have a word for deception so they had to equate it to something they recognize. The observations of the snake and it's hidden life is chosen for that representation. Other tribes of that time had the same usage.
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 23, 2011 at 1:30 am
(November 23, 2011 at 1:11 am)Old Seer Wrote: Ancient peoples didn't have words to describe spiritual things ...
You were doing ... ehh ...OK until I got to "spiritual". This means you believe in fairy tales. Just checking, thanks.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 23, 2011 at 2:12 am
(This post was last modified: November 23, 2011 at 2:38 am by dtango.)
(November 23, 2011 at 1:11 am)Old Seer Wrote: It is the history of a people in a particular place, written by them. The Israelis still use it today. To scholars it is a strange writing that they don't understand. Scholars look for Israelite history by other means because the writings don't conform to normal thinking. I quite agree!
I would like to add that the writings not only disagree with our modern thinking but that we lack the information that would have promoted understanding of the texts (any archaic texts).
As an example I can mention the case of the original diaspora of the humanity:
That is why it was called Babel--because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.(Gen. 11:9)
We, modern people, actually were scattered from the Near East to all over the face of the earth. This fact (that we are hybrids Homo sapiens sapiens – Neanderthal, the product of the interbreeding of the two groups that took place in the Near East) the scientists found out only last year.
(November 23, 2011 at 1:11 am)Old Seer Wrote: The observations of the snake and it's hidden life is chosen for that representation. Other tribes of that time had the same usage. The common snake symbolizes “Apep,” the main enemy of the gods according to the oldest texts of the humanity The Egyptian Pyramid texts. Whatever is against the gods, whatever it is that displeases them, it is evil. According to my opinion that is the reason for the unfair treatment of the snake because, on the other hand, the Cobra ideogram in the hieroglyphic script means “Goddess.”
(November 23, 2011 at 1:30 am)IATIA Wrote: (November 23, 2011 at 1:11 am)Old Seer Wrote: Ancient peoples didn't have words to describe spiritual things ...
You were doing ... ehh ...OK until I got to "spiritual". This means you believe in fairy tales. Just checking, thanks.
@ Old Seer
Ancient people had neither language problem nor mental problems.
They said that the gods were raping their women. You think of the gods as spiritual beings, therefore you have the problem and not them. Prove that their gods were spiritual and then claim that they had no words to name spiritual things.
@ IATIA
It is not that Old Seer believes in fairy tales, it is you who believe that the ancient texts contain fairy tales. 
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 23, 2011 at 9:46 am
(This post was last modified: November 23, 2011 at 10:03 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Quote:Scholars look for Israelite history by other means because the writings don't conform to normal thinking.
-The words you're looking for are "empirical inquiry".
Quote: It's not fairy tales, it's simply the interpretations that are faulty.
Interpretation? Maybe if I interpret Snow White symbolically it's no longer a fairy tale then? If not why not? Fanciful stories about a paradise lost; with magical fruit, talking animals, and curses covers all the bases for classification as a fairy tale. If you choose the angle that many believe in it's veracity, then it is a legend. If you prefer that it were a morality yarn it would be called a fable.
Quote:Ancient peoples didn't have words to describe spiritual things so they used material representations and labels.-(rest snipped for brevity)
Are you honestly suggesting here that our ancestors didn't have a word for deception? One of the most ubiquitous traits of humanity, engaged in from almost every angle of emotion from benign to malevolent. Why would they have a word for that eh? My Great Uncle Og never called my Great Half Cousin Ug a liar? At what point, btw, is any "spirit" involved in deception? What makes deception a "spiritual thing"? Seems like a fairly material concept to me.
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RE: Why did god create evil?
November 23, 2011 at 11:48 am
(This post was last modified: November 23, 2011 at 11:49 am by Epimethean.)
Ah, Rhythm, you have eaten of the tree of arguments with lunatics. Lo! Here cometh they!
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