Quote:The dialysis analogy aims to illustrate all that. In the analogy the sick person depends on being plugged into you for their survival. They will die if you wish to be unplugged. The question is whether you are legally, or perhaps even morally, obligated to remain connected to them against your wishes.

The analogy takes every aspect of a pregnancy into account, and even treats the fetus like a full grown adult so there's no ambiguity.

The obvious answer is you have no such obligation.

Quote:I guarantee you'll win over more pro-life supporters with this analogy than by attempting to dehumanize a human fetus, etc.

No, you won't because Pro-Choice people have used the analogy for years I have yet to see it sway a single Anti-Choice fanatic. Nor do I honestly care if they think I'm dehumanizing the fetus. Their feelings are of no interest to me...

(June 30, 2022 at 6:53 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: And let's take a moment to look at how many pregnancies end before the woman even knows she was pregnant. God's grand plan for reproduction has plenty of flaws.

God is lazy, which is why God used natural selection and mass extinctions.

Let's talk about being the child of a woman who doesn't want you.

My mother married at 16. No, she was not pregnant. She had me at 17. Yes, she was married to my father.

Her skills as a parent consisted of keeping me alive. Mind you, my great grandmother pretty much took care of me till I was two so that was a plus.

She was physically and verbally abusive. There was never a time that I was good enough. She wasn't too bad till I reached my teens, then she outright hated me. She blamed me for stealing her youth. For being the reason she didn't graduate from high school. The reason she didn't go to proms or homecomings, in fact, one year she locked herself in her room when my date came to pick me up. She signed the permission slip for me to try out for cheerleading because she said she knew I wouldn't make the squad anyway.

Once I hit my teens she turned dad against me and took any opportunity to rile him up so he would beat me. On one occassion she stood there as I was on the floor being kicked in the head and the ribs by dad saying...and I quote..."Don't kill her Fritz, I want to kill her too, but you can't kill her.

I have since found out about lies she told my kids about me...especially my oldest. Grudges and hard feelings have been held that I knew nothing about for decades. Mom had already alienated me from other family members, including my siblings.

I grew up wondering how anyone could possibly love me when even my mother could not.

Unwanted kids don't necessarily get a new family that dotes on them...before dad died he revealed that mom had never wanted children. That explained a lot.

Not everyone who can have a child, should have a child. It's really that simple, and that complex.

Choice is important.

This reversal of Roe really pisses me off on numerous levels.

But you don't get it, arewethereyet, there is an analogy that says how you and every other woman must bring a fertilized egg to full term even if it is by rape and incest, and even if it will mess up your life.

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(June 30, 2022 at 5:53 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: The dialysis analogy aims to capture all of that. In the analogy the sick person depends on being plugged into you for their survival. They will die if you wish to be unplugged.

Comparing a woman (living being) to a dialysis machine or any other inanimate object is already a fail.

(July 1, 2022 at 1:05 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: But you don't get it, arewethereyet, there is an analogy that says how you and every other woman must bring a fertilized egg to full term even if it is by rape and incest, and even if it will mess up your life.

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(June 30, 2022 at 5:53 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: The dialysis analogy aims to capture all of that. In the analogy the sick person depends on being plugged into you for their survival. They will die if you wish to be unplugged.

Comparing a woman (living being) to a dialysis machine or any other inanimate object is already a fail.

In Breezy's failed analogy, the dialysis 'machine' is another person. It fails because the correspondence with a pregnant woman and a foetus is simply nonsensical. 

Boru

(June 30, 2022 at 2:21 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(June 28, 2022 at 9:00 pm)Jehanne Wrote: An acorn is not an oak tree.

Same organism—at different stages of it's development.

Pro-life arguments have a definite advantage on this front. And I would be surprised if you've ever convinced someone that a fetus isn't a developing human by saying acorns aren't oak trees.

That's why it's necessary to understand that pro-choice positions aren't dependent on such facts.

They're definitely not dependent on such facts, I usually can't even get a pro-lifer to admit that an acorn isn't currently an oak tree.

(June 30, 2022 at 2:21 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: The famous example is that of someone being connected to a sick person as a kind of living dialysis machine. There's no doubt here that the sick person is a fully grown human being. The question is whether it's right to keep the healthy person tied up to the sick person if they ever wanted to leave.

It isn't right to keep a healthy person tied to the sick person if the healthy person wants to leave.

I would argue the dialysis/violinist scenario is a far tougher moral dilemma, especially if the sick person was highly conscious and capable of feeling suffering and pain. It is thankful that a fetus in the early stages has a very minimal first-person perspective (if it even does), thus the suffering on the part of a fetus is minimal/negligible.

But even in the dialysis/violinist, I agree it would not be right to demand the healthy person to remain connected to the sick person against their will.

(July 1, 2022 at 9:46 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 30, 2022 at 2:21 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: The famous example is that of someone being connected to a sick person as a kind of living dialysis machine. There's no doubt here that the sick person is a fully grown human being. The question is whether it's right to keep the healthy person tied up to the sick person if they ever wanted to leave.

It isn't right to keep a healthy person tied to the sick person if the healthy person wants to leave.

How about harvesting the organs (heart, liver, kidneys, etc.) of a completely healthy individual to save the lives of five critically ill individuals?

(July 1, 2022 at 3:38 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: In Breezy's failed analogy, the dialysis 'machine' is another person. It fails because the correspondence with a pregnant woman and a foetus is simply nonsensical. 

Boru

That's interesting; I like the analogy but it isn't mine. It's one of the most popular and famous pro-choice arguments, developed by Judith Thomson.