(July 23, 2022 at 12:32 pm)LostLocke Wrote:

(July 23, 2022 at 9:48 am)Billy Bob Wrote: "Given that there are terrestrial environs where humans can't survive (at least not without very special help), it's mighty hard to make the case that even the Earth  is finely tuned for human life."

Says the person who is alive on this earth.

They way you phrased that here, your reply implies that you're saying, "If we can live anywhere, on Earth then we can live everywhere on Earth." I'll assume you're not that obtuse to actually believe that. All he was saying that even for this planet, that we do live on, there are still lots of areas that will kill us.

Don't be silly I took a dip in Lake Natron just yesterday.

(July 23, 2022 at 10:34 am)pocaracas Wrote: Billy, please learn to use the quote function... it's difficult to follow your replies.
The easiest way is to navigate to your "User CP" and "Edit Options" (https://atheistforums.org/usercp.php?action=options) and then activate the bottom right option "Put the editor in source mode by default".

Then you can use standard tags:

Code:

[quote] Other user said [/quote]

(July 23, 2022 at 9:40 am)Billy Bob Wrote: "The truth is no one knows how the Universe came into being. There are ideas, but none is proven and perhaps none will ever be proven, given that repeatability detail we like to have in science and our Universe is just one and it must have started just once.
One thing that could help in that regard are the ideas that posit the existence of other universes, but that too is very likely beyond our ability to conclusively show, so... meh."

The truth is, you must prove the laws I gave did not exist when the universe was created naturally or the universe always existed naturally. Going by what we know and have NO doubts about, those laws show it could not have happened naturally. You can ignore that till the cows come home but do ignore what we know and claim "no one knows" is a lie.

Wow... Are you asking me to "prove a negative"?
That can't be done, that's why people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. You prove the positive.
So, following your logic, please prove the laws you gave did exist when the Universe was created... if this sentence makes any sense, given that space-time seems to be closely linked to the Universe. If, as it seems, time "started" with the Universe, there was no time for any of our known physical laws to exist either.... there was no space either.
Or maybe there was and it had a different behaviour to what we observe in this Universe. Who knows? Do you?
Have you studied astrophysics to know more than those who work at NASA or ESA?

(July 23, 2022 at 9:40 am)Billy Bob Wrote: "so maybe the Big Bang did break thermodynamics... who knows?"

If it did, give evidence that this natural event somehow had no such laws to abide by. All we know is that if you claim natural events then they MUST fit with the laws of nature. You don't like that and like all the rest of you brats, you will just dismiss that. None of you will admit you truly don't care about science. You just want to pretend to care and be so honest. You're clearly not. 

Like I said, we can't tell. The maths we do have show a singularity. Do you know what that means?
Let me wiki that for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity (I singled out the most relevant definitions)
""
Mathematics

   Mathematical singularity, a point at which a given mathematical object is not defined or not "well-behaved", for example infinite or not differentiable

Complex analysis

   Essential singularity, a singularity near which a function exhibits extreme behaviour

Natural sciences

   Gravitational singularity, in general relativity, a point in which gravity is so intense that spacetime itself becomes ill defined
       Initial singularity, a hypothesized singularity of infinite density before quantum fluctuations caused the Big Bang and subsequent inflation that created the Universe
   Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems, in general relativity theory, theorems about how gravitation produces singularities such as in black holes
""

"ill-defined", "extreme behaviour", "infinite density"... Take your pick and the result is that our known "laws" break. If you want to call that phenomena "supernatural", be my guest. But I would shy away from attributing it any agency, which is what happens when believers invoke a god.

(July 23, 2022 at 9:40 am)Billy Bob Wrote: "My point of view is that, given that no one knows, let's not decide that an answer that was invented thousands of years ago is the correct one.... it very likely isn't."

The correct one is backed by evidence and none of you are willing to admit that.

Considering that the "fine-tuned argument" is not evidence and there doesn't seem to be any evidence for the existence of any entity responsible for creating the Universe, what is this evidence you speak of and what is this correct answer that stems from it?

Considering most scientists agree with us that we don't know if our current laws apply to the formation of the universe o. Do those scientists not care about science? Or are they just avoiding making leaps of logic and having the humility to acknowledge the limits of their understanding? Instead of trotting our current knowledge out as evidence of something it isn't evidence for.

(July 23, 2022 at 12:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(July 23, 2022 at 9:48 am)Billy Bob Wrote: "Given that there are terrestrial environs where humans can't survive (at least not without very special help), it's mighty hard to make the case that even the Earth  is finely tuned for human life."

Says the person who is alive on this earth.

Yes, I'm alive on this Earth, but they are more places on this Earth where I can't survive unaided than places where I can. 

If a supernatural being fine-tuned the universe for human life, why can't I survive in a geothermal vent, or under six tonnes of gravel? Why is it that I have to breathe a mixture of nitrogen/oxygen and not sulfur dioxide? Why do I need supplemental oxygen to ascend to great heights or descend to great depths? Why can't I thrive in conditions where polar bears or tardigrades seem to make a good living?

The most - the very most - you can claim is that a very, very narrow range of living conditions have been fine-tuned for human beings. And even that claim is more than a little specious, since evolutionary theory has already answered it.

You're very stupid.

Boru

Anything qualifies as evidence of fine tunning therefore nothing qualifies as evidence of fine tunning

Long live Zeus!

He was around longer than the new kid on the block and you know what Bob?
Fuckall has changed when he was "the" God to a now forgotten relic.

At least all 4,000 Gods have one thing in common. Their interactions with this universe is completely indistinguishable whether they exist or not.
But don't let that dissuade you Bob. Times are tough and getting tougher, we all need a crutch to rely on. God isn't real, but the benefit you get from having false hope
IS real. Don't change one bit. Just don't waste OUR time with your bullshit. Pretty please.

(July 24, 2022 at 5:00 am)ignoramus Wrote: Long live Zeus!

He was around longer than the new kid on the block and you know what Bob?
Fuckall has changed when he was "the" God to a now forgotten relic.

At least all 4,000 Gods have one thing in common. Their interactions with this universe is completely indistinguishable whether they exist or not.
But don't let that dissuade you Bob. Times are tough and getting tougher, we all need a crutch to rely on. God isn't real, but the benefit you get from having false hope
IS real. Don't change one bit. Just don't waste OUR time with your bullshit. Pretty please.

You don’t visit us often enough, mate.

Boru

The fact that we don't know (yet) exactly how the universe was created does not mean a god did it

(July 23, 2022 at 10:06 am)Angrboda Wrote:

(July 23, 2022 at 9:40 am)Billy Bob Wrote: If it did, give evidence that this natural event somehow had no such laws to abide by.

Our current laws of physics are incapable of accurately describing the universe before the inception of the big bang and so our laws are not knowably applicable at the time when the universe ostensibly began.

But keep spinning your outrageous fantasy for anyone bored enough to listen.

YOU chose to pick the naturalistic way. YOU DID! We have NO science to show in the natural realm the laws could not have existed. Not only that, what your big bang did is supernatural, but you liars just call it natural. You are brats attached to your naturalistic "fantasy" that you will resort to science fiction. None of you will even admit that going by science, creation can't happen naturally. We KNOW this and I gave the evidence yet you still will cling to your brat ways. You don't have the upper hand in this with science and integrity, I DO!

(July 23, 2022 at 10:34 am)pocaracas Wrote: Billy, please learn to use the quote function... it's difficult to follow your replies.
The easiest way is to navigate to your "User CP" and "Edit Options" (https://atheistforums.org/usercp.php?action=options) and then activate the bottom right option "Put the editor in source mode by default".

Then you can use standard tags:

Code:

[quote] Other user said [/quote]

(July 23, 2022 at 9:40 am)Billy Bob Wrote: "The truth is no one knows how the Universe came into being. There are ideas, but none is proven and perhaps none will ever be proven, given that repeatability detail we like to have in science and our Universe is just one and it must have started just once.
One thing that could help in that regard are the ideas that posit the existence of other universes, but that too is very likely beyond our ability to conclusively show, so... meh."

The truth is, you must prove the laws I gave did not exist when the universe was created naturally or the universe always existed naturally. Going by what we know and have NO doubts about, those laws show it could not have happened naturally. You can ignore that till the cows come home but do ignore what we know and claim "no one knows" is a lie.

Wow... Are you asking me to "prove a negative"?
That can't be done, that's why people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. You prove the positive.
So, following your logic, please prove the laws you gave did exist when the Universe was created... if this sentence makes any sense, given that space-time seems to be closely linked to the Universe. If, as it seems, time "started" with the Universe, there was no time for any of our known physical laws to exist either.... there was no space either.
Or maybe there was and it had a different behaviour to what we observe in this Universe. Who knows? Do you?
Have you studied astrophysics to know more than those who work at NASA or ESA?

(July 23, 2022 at 9:40 am)Billy Bob Wrote: "so maybe the Big Bang did break thermodynamics... who knows?"

If it did, give evidence that this natural event somehow had no such laws to abide by. All we know is that if you claim natural events then they MUST fit with the laws of nature. You don't like that and like all the rest of you brats, you will just dismiss that. None of you will admit you truly don't care about science. You just want to pretend to care and be so honest. You're clearly not. 

Like I said, we can't tell. The maths we do have show a singularity. Do you know what that means?
Let me wiki that for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity (I singled out the most relevant definitions)
""
Mathematics

   Mathematical singularity, a point at which a given mathematical object is not defined or not "well-behaved", for example infinite or not differentiable

Complex analysis

   Essential singularity, a singularity near which a function exhibits extreme behaviour

Natural sciences

   Gravitational singularity, in general relativity, a point in which gravity is so intense that spacetime itself becomes ill defined
       Initial singularity, a hypothesized singularity of infinite density before quantum fluctuations caused the Big Bang and subsequent inflation that created the Universe
   Penrose–Hawking singularity theorems, in general relativity theory, theorems about how gravitation produces singularities such as in black holes
""

"ill-defined", "extreme behaviour", "infinite density"... Take your pick and the result is that our known "laws" break. If you want to call that phenomena "supernatural", be my guest. But I would shy away from attributing it any agency, which is what happens when believers invoke a god.

(July 23, 2022 at 9:40 am)Billy Bob Wrote: "My point of view is that, given that no one knows, let's not decide that an answer that was invented thousands of years ago is the correct one.... it very likely isn't."

The correct one is backed by evidence and none of you are willing to admit that.

Considering that the "fine-tuned argument" is not evidence and there doesn't seem to be any evidence for the existence of any entity responsible for creating the Universe, what is this evidence you speak of and what is this correct answer that stems from it?

Me...."The truth is, you must prove the laws I gave did not exist when the universe was created naturally or the universe always existed naturally."

So that is what you are all doing, ignoring the laws and saying we don't know. Then you come up with this BS...

"Wow... Are you asking me to "prove a negative"?"

Why can't you be responsible for what YOU believe? If I'm being told the didn't exist then by the evidence of "we don't know" when I gave the laws that have shown to work in the natural realm, then admit you don't want to follow science. None of you are honest enough to do that. 

"So, following your logic, please prove the laws you gave did exist when the Universe was created."

You're another person with a reading problem. I never said the laws existed during creation; I CLEARLY put that creation had to be done supernaturally by a supernatural creator. 

Look, learn to read and then reply to me because this is getting old dealing with such slow people.

---Evidence points to nothing does nothing. Real science says if there was something there already it must fit with the evidence of what we know. It must be observable, repeatable, and falsifiable. We know the 1LT says there's a conservation of energy. It can change forms and neither can be created or destroyed. Creation cannot happen by natural means. The 2LT has various aspects, one being the universe is winding down, entropy. Usable energy is becoming less usable, so at one point usable energy was at its max. This (the 1LT and 2LT) all points to a supernatural creation, by a supernatural creator at a certain point in which matter, space and time were created. When I read how it can happen otherwise, ALL the doubters resort to science-fiction. Once a supernatural creation is accepted, then the next step is finding proof of what supernatural power did it. We know these laws and have NO doubts about them.


Then after creation there are a WHOLE lot of things science never got around such as the fine-tuning of the universe so life can exist on earth, the beginning of life, the designs of life forms, the information needing to be there before life started, the synchrony needed from the start, asexual and sexual reproduction, consciousness, logic, etc.----

(July 23, 2022 at 11:03 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(July 23, 2022 at 9:20 am)Billy Bob Wrote: I can give evidence for the fine tuning but if you're going to gloss over what I gave on creation, you'll do the same with fine tuning.

Then why do you come here if you consider a conversation with people here futile?

"Then why do you come here if you consider a conversation with people here futile?"

Because it's fun showing what hypocrites you are regarding the topic. You fakes don't follow science.

(July 24, 2022 at 8:08 am)Billy Bob Wrote:

(July 23, 2022 at 11:03 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Then why do you come here if you consider a conversation with people here futile?

"Then why do you come here if you consider a conversation with people here futile?"

Because it's fun showing what hypocrites you are regarding the topic. You fakes don't follow science.

There is nothing supernatural in science and no amount of insults you are pouring here will change that.