I thought I'd reply to a thread someone else started here, because I found his post provided opportunity to explain why many people end up at forums like these, searching mostly in vain for answers.
 
Here is his original post:
 

(May 25, 2022 at 11:19 am)TheJefe817 Wrote: As I go through the process of continually reexamining by beliefs (largely now former beliefs), I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue.  Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades.  To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest.  Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect.
 
So my question is - does anyone have suggetions on where to look on the theist side for something honest?  I say that because the sources I am pointed toward by theists tend to feel like sales jobs treading over well-worn arguments (Kalaam, Pascal, gaps, etc) rather than true explorations.  I'm getting suggested folks like WL Craig, Habermas, Strobel, Licona - and I just feel like they are all starting with their desired answer and backfilling.  Are there others that might provide any satisfying thoughts?

 
Now, to break down this post a bit I'll quote snippets, starting here (and while my responses are technically directed at him, they're really directed at anyone like him who comes here):
 
"I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue."
 
If this is true, good. But coming to an atheist forum to find a credible “theist” source strongly suggests that you're already barking up the wrong tree. What makes you think an atheist forum is going to have answers? Atheists are fools, as the Scriptures say: "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good." (Psalm 14:1)

What good is any source an atheist suggests to you going to do? Clearly it hasn't worked for them. In fact, they are nearly certain to provide you with materials that will only lead you further astray or waste your time. Now, perhaps you've come hoping to find a credible person here, but that was not the gist I took from your post.
 
 
"Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades.  To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest."
 
I'd be interested to know what sources and facts have been hidden, forbidden, or shouted down that were powerful enough to lead to any kind of "deconversion." That aside, however, I'd like to know how you've determined any of those positions to be honest, because frankly there is no way for anyone to determine the honesty of anyone else apart from personally experienced knowledge.
 
For instance, say there is someone who claims the Earth is 65 billion years old. Someone else asserts that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Both have studied the materials, have actually done the testing, and are even similarly educated. Whom do you believe, without conducting the experiments yourself? How do you know one of them isn't lying or mistaken?
 
Are you going to say "Well, the majority of scientists have concluded..." well, that just isn't a valid argument. The majority of scientists once called heliocentric theory heresy. I understand Galileo spent the rest of his life in prison for advancing it.
 
My point is, who are you to determine what is true or false? By what authority do you operate, other than your own? That of others? Do you refer to and rely upon "the experts”? If history has proven anything, it's that there is no man on earth who can be relied upon. There may be people who have proven themselves correct on occasion, or even often, but who in history has ever been perfectly reliable? Can you provide a single instance?
 
How then, if you can't rely upon yourself for information that you haven’t personally verified, can you rely upon random people on the internet? Talk about barking up the wrong tree!
 
So, what's the solution? God, of course, and by God I mean the Lord Jesus Christ. That sounds like such an inane thing to most people, and probably at least a little sanctimonious. But that's only because people don't believe—if they did, they would be filled with hope and excitement (not that anyone can get there immediately necessarily). It's actually a wonderful thing to have the certainty about things that have baffled mankind since the dawn of existence simply because you know in your bones, from the Lord, truth from falsehood (and by the way, I’m not discounting the usefulness of evidence, which the Lord does provide in many situations, but evidence can be manipulated or even fabricated in service of an agenda).
 
"Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect."
 
I'm not well-read in atheist literature, but I'm familiar with Sam Harris. This is the same man who has justified vile dishonesty in service of his thoroughly wicked political ideals: https://nypost.com/2022/08/21/the-lefts-...rump-bias/
 
From this man's mouth have come forth these words as well: “Where is heaven exactly, given that we have multiple telescopes up there beaming back information?”
 
What pure idiocy! And you listen to this man? Consider how foolish you were to ever lend an ear to someone so completely in darkness, and reconsider more carefully looking to men for information (and know that it was the Lord Who revealed Sam Harris to be a liar and a fool).
 
And perhaps you see a contradiction here. After all, I'm a man offering you counsel, aren't I? A fair point! You can't look to me for answers, either. I may be able to plant a seed, but only God can provide the growth (and truly, I can't even plant a seed except by His grace).
 
Really, the only advice that is worth giving is to look to the Lord Himself and not to any man for answers or salvation. He's the only One Who can provide either.
 
But what about those who claim that they've sought God directly and failed to find Him, through prayer or whatever other means? There is a Scripture that might put that into perspective:
 
"You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." (James 4:3)
 
Many seek God, but for all kinds of wrong reasons: seeking wealth, power (even through knowledge), security; any kind of selfish end, that's usually why people seek God. But what is God looking for?
 
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51:17)
 
He wants us to approach him with a broken spirit and contrite heart, because we're sorry for our evil deeds and don't want to continue our lives in sin, without Him. Can you (or any of you) say that you've done this? And remember, you must be sincere to the point of being willing to die, even by crucifixion: “And He said to all, “If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.” (Luke 9:23)
 
Oh, many of you will say "of course"! But how can you be so sure? After all, the Scriptures say this:
 
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

The prophet Jeremiah also wrote "You will seek Me and find Me, when you seek Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
 
So the answer is simple: if you haven't found God, it's because you haven't sought Him with all your heart; it's because you've sought after Him with evil motives. So you wind up in a place like this, where wicked people speak all kinds of evil about the Lord without fear (on both sides, I should add). To all of you I say this: look at everything around you falling apart. If you can't see the widespread evil and imminent destruction of the world as we know it, then you're blind. If you can see it, then you need to fear—and remember Who is in charge.
 
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10). Time to get wise.

TL;DR, so I’ll just reply to the title:

I can’t find God for the same reason I can’t find Bigfoot, goblins, chem trails, chupacabras, pixies, reptilian aliens, angels, fire-breathing dragons, ogres, centaurs and guac that doesn’t disgust me.

Things that don’t exist are notable for how how hard they are to find.

Boru

I have to agree on the guac thing but am still hoping to stumble upon a pixie; and dragons are just so cool that they really should exist.

(September 10, 2022 at 12:06 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: I thought I'd reply to a thread someone else started here, because I found his post provided opportunity to explain why many people end up at forums like these, searching mostly in vain for answers.
 
Here is his original post:
 

(May 25, 2022 at 11:19 am)TheJefe817 Wrote: As I go through the process of continually reexamining by beliefs (largely now former beliefs), I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue.  Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades.  To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest.  Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect.
 
So my question is - does anyone have suggetions on where to look on the theist side for something honest?  I say that because the sources I am pointed toward by theists tend to feel like sales jobs treading over well-worn arguments (Kalaam, Pascal, gaps, etc) rather than true explorations.  I'm getting suggested folks like WL Craig, Habermas, Strobel, Licona - and I just feel like they are all starting with their desired answer and backfilling.  Are there others that might provide any satisfying thoughts?

 
Now, to break down this post a bit I'll quote snippets, starting here (and while my responses are technically directed at him, they're really directed at anyone like him who comes here):
 
"I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue."
 
If this is true, good. But coming to an atheist forum to find a credible “theist” source strongly suggests that you're already barking up the wrong tree. What makes you think an atheist forum is going to have answers? Atheists are fools, as the Scriptures say: "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good." (Psalm 14:1)

What good is any source an atheist suggests to you going to do? Clearly it hasn't worked for them. In fact, they are nearly certain to provide you with materials that will only lead you further astray or waste your time. Now, perhaps you've come hoping to find a credible person here, but that was not the gist I took from your post.
 
 
"Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades.  To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest."
 
I'd be interested to know what sources and facts have been hidden, forbidden, or shouted down that were powerful enough to lead to any kind of "deconversion." That aside, however, I'd like to know how you've determined any of those positions to be honest, because frankly there is no way for anyone to determine the honesty of anyone else apart from personally experienced knowledge.
 
For instance, say there is someone who claims the Earth is 65 billion years old. Someone else asserts that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Both have studied the materials, have actually done the testing, and are even similarly educated. Whom do you believe, without conducting the experiments yourself? How do you know one of them isn't lying or mistaken?
 
Are you going to say "Well, the majority of scientists have concluded..." well, that just isn't a valid argument. The majority of scientists once called heliocentric theory heresy. I understand Galileo spent the rest of his life in prison for advancing it.
 
My point is, who are you to determine what is true or false? By what authority do you operate, other than your own? That of others? Do you refer to and rely upon "the experts”? If history has proven anything, it's that there is no man on earth who can be relied upon. There may be people who have proven themselves correct on occasion, or even often, but who in history has ever been perfectly reliable? Can you provide a single instance?
 
How then, if you can't rely upon yourself for information that you haven’t personally verified, can you rely upon random people on the internet? Talk about barking up the wrong tree!
 
So, what's the solution? God, of course, and by God I mean the Lord Jesus Christ. That sounds like such an inane thing to most people, and probably at least a little sanctimonious. But that's only because people don't believe—if they did, they would be filled with hope and excitement (not that anyone can get there immediately necessarily). It's actually a wonderful thing to have the certainty about things that have baffled mankind since the dawn of existence simply because you know in your bones, from the Lord, truth from falsehood (and by the way, I’m not discounting the usefulness of evidence, which the Lord does provide in many situations, but evidence can be manipulated or even fabricated in service of an agenda).
 
"Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect."
 
I'm not well-read in atheist literature, but I'm familiar with Sam Harris. This is the same man who has justified vile dishonesty in service of his thoroughly wicked political ideals: https://nypost.com/2022/08/21/the-lefts-...rump-bias/
 

Moderator Notice
Link restored. Mea culpa

From this man's mouth have come forth these words as well: “Where is heaven exactly, given that we have multiple telescopes up there beaming back information?”
 
What pure idiocy! And you listen to this man? Consider how foolish you were to ever lend an ear to someone so completely in darkness, and reconsider more carefully looking to men for information (and know that it was the Lord Who revealed Sam Harris to be a liar and a fool).
 
And perhaps you see a contradiction here. After all, I'm a man offering you counsel, aren't I? A fair point! You can't look to me for answers, either. I may be able to plant a seed, but only God can provide the growth (and truly, I can't even plant a seed except by His grace).
 
Really, the only advice that is worth giving is to look to the Lord Himself and not to any man for answers or salvation. He's the only One Who can provide either.
 
But what about those who claim that they've sought God directly and failed to find Him, through prayer or whatever other means? There is a Scripture that might put that into perspective:
 
"You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." (James 4:3)
 
Many seek God, but for all kinds of wrong reasons: seeking wealth, power (even through knowledge), security; any kind of selfish end, that's usually why people seek God. But what is God looking for?
 
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Psalm 51:17)
 
He wants us to approach him with a broken spirit and contrite heart, because we're sorry for our evil deeds and don't want to continue our lives in sin, without Him. Can you (or any of you) say that you've done this? And remember, you must be sincere to the point of being willing to die, even by crucifixion: “And He said to all, “If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.” (Luke 9:23)
 
Oh, many of you will say "of course"! But how can you be so sure? After all, the Scriptures say this:
 
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

The prophet Jeremiah also wrote "You will seek Me and find Me, when you seek Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
 
So the answer is simple: if you haven't found God, it's because you haven't sought Him with all your heart; it's because you've sought after Him with evil motives. So you wind up in a place like this, where wicked people speak all kinds of evil about the Lord without fear (on both sides, I should add). To all of you I say this: look at everything around you falling apart. If you can't see the widespread evil and imminent destruction of the world as we know it, then you're blind. If you can see it, then you need to fear—and remember Who is in charge.
 
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10). Time to get wise.

Perhaps you should become well read in atheist literature™ before you say things like...atheists are fools? Hey, maybe we are, but how would you know?

I'd love to lean in on this idea of how the heart is deceitful above all things, though. Do you think that's true? Spirit of diplomacy right? I dont have any trouble thinking that I may not have found gods because I wasn't really looking. I'm certainly not now. I check for cars, not gods..when I cross the street..and I look for disease, not gods, when my crops fail. Ya got me. So..about these lying hearts? In what way has yours deceived you?

(September 10, 2022 at 12:12 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: TL;DR, so I’ll just reply to the title:

I can’t find God for the same reason I can’t find Bigfoot, goblins, chem trails, chupacabras, pixies, reptilian aliens, angels, fire-breathing dragons, ogres, centaurs and guac that doesn’t disgust me.

Things that don’t exist are notable for how how hard they are to find.

Boru

Don't you think that responding to a post that was too long for you to read is a foolish thing to do? Thank you for proving my point to The Grand Nudger.

(September 10, 2022 at 12:16 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I have to agree on the guac thing but am still hoping to stumble upon a pixie; and dragons are just so cool that they really should exist.

A similarly disrespectful and foolish post to the above; but I don't expect anything more from you people, neither was my post intended for any of you, excluding the end of it.

(September 10, 2022 at 12:23 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Perhaps you should become well read in atheist literature™ before you say things like...atheists are fools?  Hey, maybe we are, but how would you know?

I'd love to lean in on this idea of how the heart is deceitful above all things, though.  Do you think that's true?  If you do..do you also think that a christian heart™ might be deceitful?

My own father was an atheist, and I've argued with you people plenty enough to know how stubborn and foolish you can be.

Your question is a bit tricky. There are many people who proclaim themselves to be Christians, for one, who absolutely are not (most of them, in fact). Their hearts have indeed deceived them.

And who can say who is a true Christian? I can say there are those I believe are Christian, but are they? And how about myself? Maybe my own heart deceives me. I have to at least acknowledge that possibility, yes.

The problem here is that people like you seek absolute, incontrovertible proof and certainty. That's not what faith is about, not how the Lord designed its purpose. God is Spirit; He is the Word, that is, He isn't defined by the tangible, but by the intangible element of His character, His righteousness. That is why faith is necessary.

And really, faith has very little to do with the existence of God. His existence is obvious to those whom He hasn't deliberately blinded. Faith is about believing in His righteousness and walking by it, by the intangible, despite the tangible fighting us much of the time.

'You people'

What an ass you are.

(September 10, 2022 at 12:40 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote:

(September 10, 2022 at 12:12 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: TL;DR, so I’ll just reply to the title:

I can’t find God for the same reason I can’t find Bigfoot, goblins, chem trails, chupacabras, pixies, reptilian aliens, angels, fire-breathing dragons, ogres, centaurs and guac that doesn’t disgust me.

Things that don’t exist are notable for how how hard they are to find.

Boru

Don't you think that responding to a post that was too long for you to read is a foolish thing to do? Thank you for proving my point to The Grand Nudger.

If you’ll read carefully, I made it clear that I wasn’t responding to your post, just to the title. And it wasn’t ‘too long’ for me to read. I opted to no read it. You preachy types never have anything new or interesting to say. I’ve seen so much of this drivel that I know what it says without the bother of reading it.

No, I don’t think it was foolish. I think it was an excellent choice in the use of my time.

‘The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.’ Psalms 14:1

‘The wise man shouteth it from the rooftops.’ Borudians 24:7

Boru

And that last part that you posted and claim was explicitly for us is just another variant of, "That's because you were never a true Christian."

Think on this, padawan: Atheism needs no such excuses. Science needs no such excuses. Philosophy needs no such excuses. Anywhere actual truth and knowledge are to be found, no excuses.

Religion? Filled with excuses.

(September 10, 2022 at 12:52 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: 'You people'

What an ass you are.

Actually, you raise a fair point.

In saying "you people," I suppose I was referring to atheists in general initially, because the vast majority I've run into on here are simple vile people. I didn't really think about it. But now that I've had time to reflect, I believe I was referring to people like you, who are so thoroughly dismissive (on a forum purposed for debate, no less) of anyone who doesn't say what they want to hear that they think they can just act the fool without consequence.

I assure you, there are consequences for every action we take in this life, and there will be consequences for shooting your mouth off on this forum. It may not come in a way you expect or can even see as related to your offense, but it'll come, and that goes for anyone who behaves as you have. The Lord sees all and prescribes punishment in due time.