(December 1, 2011 at 4:30 am)ElDinero Wrote:

(November 30, 2011 at 10:52 pm)Hoptoad Wrote: Let me give an example, Christ said love your fellow man, he didn't say except for, or only if.
That's a lot of people, all of them. It's a big concept I am sure you can see the problems with it. But when you start limiting that care that respect to only the groups and individuals you approve of, then you open the door to hating the ones you don't.

So that's what I do, I try to think like that, to live like that.

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Christ said a lot of things (according to your book, of course). Will you be brave/foolish enough to say that all his teachings were virtuous and wise? Will you say you try to live by every one of those words?

I'd say it's pretty easy for a decent, moral, thinking person to say 'I'm going to love my fellow man'. Will the same person say 'Christ said 'I do not come to bring peace, but a sword' and I try to live like that'?

We have an 'Evidence for the existence of God' thread kicking around if you'd like to have a shot. 150ish pages, nothing so far. Best of luck.

I do not come to bring peace but a sword, was not a teaching, it was a warning.

This is going to be difficult to explain, I don't try to prove the existence of God, that is not my remit.
I hold that if God wanted his existence proved he could easily do it himself. I also believe it would be the most dangerous thing that could happen to man, we are not ready. If proof was given man would do as they where told but that is all they would do, we would lose free will, lose the ability to question, or advance on our merits, I don't believe God wants that.

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(December 1, 2011 at 10:37 am)popeyespappy Wrote:

(November 30, 2011 at 10:52 pm)Hoptoad Wrote: You wanted me to elaborate on what I am, what I mean by a simple Christian. A lot of ideas and concept's have been added to what Christ taught. Like a building that has been decorated with a fancy facade and as more and more decoration is added the building is lost from sight. I just try to see the original building, understand what he was saying.

The story has been embellished over time. With this as a given the question becomes how do you separate fact from fiction?

The main canonical gospels have remained the same other than translation changes since Constantine. As to changes made to the teachings by Constantine, would he have risked alienating his main supporters by producing a book that they knew was altered from what they had risked so much for?

Most alterations are in interpretation, I simply read what is writing and balance it against how it is interpreted. In this I am only doing what Christ him self said to do.

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(December 1, 2011 at 10:57 am)Rhythm Wrote: Most likely along the lines drawn by Hoptoad being a good person regardless of religion (or in fact in spite of it), picking and choosing those passages which do not conflict with his conscience. Jesus was a vocal supporter of thought crime legislation and sentencing as well. We living our lives based on that one? Doubtful.

Legislation? The teachings are there to follow of your own free will, if any one is forcing you to follow them, they have got it all wrong.

If your eye offends you pluck it out , if the hand offends you cut it off. You do it, no one else, frankly my hand would have to be pretty bloody offensive to get me that angry.

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(December 1, 2011 at 1:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 30, 2011 at 10:52 pm)Hoptoad Wrote: You can only stretch coincidence and synchronicty so far. Littlewoods law is OK for once a month, but when it is every day you have problems.

Maybe if time allows, but that's it for me tonight, sleep well.

"I can't explain this strange experience ergo god". Sounds like you've explained the inexplicable to me, so apparently you can. Anyone can give you an explanation for anything you like, that doesn't mean the explanation is factually accurate. Sounds like you may have put a checkmark in the god column because you exhausted your own imagination. Others may have more fertile imaginations. Guess I'll have to wait for that thread.

I did not jump to conclusions, I mark the start of my agnostic period with one small insignificant easily explainable event, that at the time I reasoned away. I only mark it as such from the benefit of hindsight. It was a further between 6 to 8 years before I very reluctantly entered the church I eventual chose. A God or Gods weren't in the picture at first. I recognise now I had other problems with my Atheism that at the times I wasn't aware of, choosing your own morals is fine unless you choose the wrong ones, as I did.


I am new here, also I have little free time, I am rushing now for instance a thread needs attendance that I may not be able to give, when I am more familiar perhaps.

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(December 1, 2011 at 12:09 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(November 29, 2011 at 10:21 pm)Hoptoad Wrote: Shooting complex Christians would cause too many complications.Try saying that when your drunk.

I normally would, but I am a bit on the wagon right now. Trying to see how many days I can go sober in a row.

hopefully I will lose some weight from the challenge.

BTW - Rated up your Rep for that one:

Positive (+1): Seems to have an easy going attitude with a great sense of humor.

A big thank you to the very Reverendjeremiah,

Ps, the bribes uner the collection plate.

(December 1, 2011 at 11:57 pm)Hoptoad Wrote:

(December 1, 2011 at 10:37 am)popeyespappy Wrote:

(November 30, 2011 at 10:52 pm)Hoptoad Wrote: You wanted me to elaborate on what I am, what I mean by a simple Christian. A lot of ideas and concept's have been added to what Christ taught. Like a building that has been decorated with a fancy facade and as more and more decoration is added the building is lost from sight. I just try to see the original building, understand what he was saying.

The story has been embellished over time. With this as a given the question becomes how do you separate fact from fiction?

The main canonical gospels have remained the same other than translation changes since Constantine. As to changes made to the teachings by Constantine, would he have risked alienating his main supporters by producing a book that they knew was altered from what they had risked so much for?

Have they? Many, perhaps even most scholars believe that Mark 16:9-20 are later additions to the text. Later as in post Constantine. That says nothing about the origins of the Canonical Gospel, or whether they are actually what they are claimed to be. Many of those same scholars are proponents of the Two-source hypothesis. This hypothesis basically says that Mark along with another document called Q were used as sources to create Mathew and Luke. Very few Biblical scholars currently believe any of the Canonical Gospels were actually written by the people they are traditionally attributed to. If these things are true then it should cast a dark shadow of doubt as to the validity of what is contained in these documents.

(December 1, 2011 at 11:57 pm)Hoptoad Wrote: I do not come to bring peace but a sword, was not a teaching, it was a warning.

This is going to be difficult to explain, I don't try to prove the existence of God, that is not my remit.
I hold that if God wanted his existence proved he could easily do it himself. I also believe it would be the most dangerous thing that could happen to man, we are not ready. If proof was given man would do as they where told but that is all they would do, we would lose free will, lose the ability to question, or advance on our merits, I don't believe God wants that.

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We don't have free will anyway, so that's ok.

You didn't really answer my general question, either. Are you saying you think every word spoken by Christ was righteous? Do you follow every one of his teachings?

We don't know that ElD, even if QM may lead us to believe so.

I don't know who or what QM is, but free will is an absurd notion.

Quantum mechanics.

Why do you think it's absurd?

Well, if it's not too rude to answer a question with a question, can you give an example of somebody using free will?

Sure Hop..you do it yourself.......or else! I don't believe that god gave us any celestial laws, or that he "sits in judgement" either. Course, the biblical position diagrees with me, doesn't it? God did set laws (legislation) and he will cast us into the lake of fire (sentencing). One of those things god set a law against and will punish us for just happens to be thought crime, if we are to trust the word of jesus.

(December 1, 2011 at 11:57 pm)Hoptoad Wrote: I am new here, also I have little free time, I am rushing now for instance a thread needs attendance that I may not be able to give, when I am more familiar perhaps.

Ok, you guys really took the title of his intro thread to heart, huh?? "new target"....

I guess he opened the can of worms and you guys in return opened the can of whoop ass....

Continue on...

Did no one comment on his assumption that the theists here would have to be good ones?

We have a couple. Like, I can count on a few fingers. The rest...

I'll reserve judgment on you, Mr. Toad.

We have a Frog, a Toad, and now we just need a Newt.