(September 30, 2022 at 5:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 30, 2022 at 12:37 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Like non-violent black drug offenders and innocent people in jail that took a plea deal because their lawyer recommended they do so? You give the system the power to take away people's votes, and they're going to use it to take away the votes of non-violent black offenders, while blacks are way over-represented in the prison population. Like Bernie Sanders and Happy Skeptic pointed out, this is a way to squash the black vote and it's racist.

If they are innocent, the problem isn't their voting rights in prison.  It's that they are in prison at all.

I advocate for the release, with money earmarked for low-interest loans, training and so on, of the majority of prisoners-- ESPECIALLY those who were imprisoned on the 3-strike rule for things that are no longer serious crimes, like possession of marijuana.

The problem is that they are in prison at all? Well, we're never going to get to a place where there are no innocent people in prison, so that's a moot point. The same goes for the death penalty. Even if one innocent is killed on death row, that's one too many, which is why there can be no death penalty.

(October 1, 2022 at 3:33 am)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(October 1, 2022 at 3:14 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Under your username it says you prove it, I'll believe it. Well, I don't believe you. I like Biden well enough, but you are playing team sports here. His brain is clearly deteriorating, and it's clear that this is why he won't even commit to running in 2024. Why do you reckon he won't commit to running in 2024? Take a hint, sister.

Maybe the fact that he's pushing 80, that and enough people in his own party are underwhelmed by his performance as President enough that they're seriously considering another candidate, something that I've never heard from a President in his first term.

The Biden team was pushing the notion that he may only serve one term, and this was before he was even in office and just running. But you are right, he is old as hell, and people are clearly plugging their ears and holding their hands over their eyes so they don't have to accept that old people can get brain fog sometime, and their brain can start to deteriorate. Like I said, it is what it is. I'll still take Biden at his current age by far over Kamala or Buttigieg or Beto or Trump or Desantis.

Quote:Under your username it says you prove it, I'll believe it. Well, I don't believe you. I like Biden well enough, but you are playing team sports here. His brain is clearly deteriorating, and it's clear that this is why he won't even commit to running in 2024. Why do you reckon he won't commit to running in 2024? Take a hint, sister.

The video you pointed to proves nothing and he won't run again because he's fucking ancient and pointing all this out isn't "team sports"

Quote:The Biden team was pushing the notion that he may only serve one term, and this was before he was even in office and just running. But you are right, he is old as hell, and people are clearly plugging their ears and holding their hands over their eyes so they don't have to accept that old people can get brain fog sometime, and their brain can start to deteriorate. Like I said, it is what it is. I'll still take Biden at his current age by far over Kamala or Buttigieg or Beto or Trump or Desantis.

Yeah, the shit shown doesn't prove his brain is deteriorating it proves he sometimes forgets and misspeaks that's not proof his brain is deteriorating. You would need an actual medical assessment to make that judgment and you are not a doctor....

(October 1, 2022 at 4:07 am)Helios Wrote:

Quote:Under your username it says you prove it, I'll believe it. Well, I don't believe you. I like Biden well enough, but you are playing team sports here. His brain is clearly deteriorating, and it's clear that this is why he won't even commit to running in 2024. Why do you reckon he won't commit to running in 2024? Take a hint, sister.

The video you pointed to proves nothing and he won't run again because he's fucking ancient and pointing all this out isn't "team sports"

Quote:The Biden team was pushing the notion that he may only serve one term, and this was before he was even in office and just running. But you are right, he is old as hell, and people are clearly plugging their ears and holding their hands over their eyes so they don't have to accept that old people can get brain fog sometime, and their brain can start to deteriorate. Like I said, it is what it is. I'll still take Biden at his current age by far over Kamala or Buttigieg or Beto or Trump or Desantis.

Yeah, the shit shown doesn't prove his brain is deteriorating it proves he sometimes forgets and misspeaks that's not proof his brain is deteriorating. You would need an actual medical assessment to make that judgment and you are not a doctor....

Don't think I need a diagnosis to show that his brain is clearly deteriorating. If someone with severe autism walks into the room and starts talking to me, I'm probably not going to need to know their exact diagnosis to realize that something is up with them and that they are neuro-atypical. It's called the eye test, and with Biden, yes, I do believe my lying eyes. Boru brought up how Obama made some gaffes before too. Well, show me a video compilation from Obama, or Bill Clinton, or Pete Buttigieg, or Beto, or Cory Booker, etc. that shows them looking as bad as Biden did in that compilation.

What you are doing is playing semantics here, helios. Yes, I do not know Biden's exact diagnosis, so if you want to be strictly technical with the word 'prove' then sure, proof only exists in mathematics if we are going to take that statement completely literally.

(October 1, 2022 at 3:41 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(September 30, 2022 at 5:52 pm)bennyboy Wrote: If they are innocent, the problem isn't their voting rights in prison.  It's that they are in prison at all.

I advocate for the release, with money earmarked for low-interest loans, training and so on, of the majority of prisoners-- ESPECIALLY those who were imprisoned on the 3-strike rule for things that are no longer serious crimes, like possession of marijuana.

The problem is that they are in prison at all? Well, we're never going to get to a place where there are no innocent people in prison, so that's a moot point. The same goes for the death penalty. Even if one innocent is killed on death row, that's one too many, which is why there can be no death penalty.

It sucks to be the victim of injustice, but that's not necessarily a reason not to imprison anyone or even to kill them for very serious crimes.  The government should have this burden-- to match the punishment to the crime, but to accept increasing responsibility of due diligence for the biggest punishments.  That's why death row inmates are there sooooo long, and there are sooo many appeals and so on.

Civilians are much less careful than this, in ways that are so likely to cause injury or death that I think negligence should receive almost the same punishment.  For example, the outcome of driving while using a phone is SO likely to cause harm, that being caught doing so should lead to a prison sentence of several years.  Every few years, some asshole celebrity dies in a sports-car crash, and everyone mourns him.  Fuck that-- we should line up to take turns pissing on his grave because his willingness to launch a Lamborghini into the air for excitement was a threat to us all.

To me it's curious that when a government makes a mistake involving injustice, the world is ending.  But every day, my precious family walk out into a society filled by fuckwits.  I let 300 million other people roll the dice for me-- where a losing roll ends up with something so horrific happening to my family that it will end my happiness in an instant and forever.

Yeah, being wrongly imprisoned for murder SUCKS.  But there were 16,000 homicides in the US-- and it's better to lock up a few people wrongly than to let 16,000 murderous fuckwits roam free.

Being wrongly imprisoned for rape SUCKS.  But there were 85,000 rapes reported in 2010-- and it's better to get a few cases wrong than to let 85,000 rapist fuckwits roam free.

Remember that for every story that runs about a wrongful imprisonment, there are many thousands of very hard, dangerous men behind bars not raping you or killing you for your jewlry for a couple doses of Fentanyl. Cry for their "human right to vote" when they care about your rights to safety or liberty.

(September 30, 2022 at 12:34 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(September 30, 2022 at 12:21 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I can answer this.

A person who's not been willing to uphold their responsibilities in regard to the social contract shouldn't be given a voice in molding it.

The social contract is not an all or nothing thing.  This is just senseless stigmatizing.

Yeah, we don't want to "stigmatize" rapists, murders and drug dealers.  It might hurt their feelings.

(September 30, 2022 at 12:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: What about people NOT in prison (and who have never been) who don’t uphold their social contract responsibilities?

Boru

There needs to be some flexibility since nobody's perfect, but basically-- fuck 'em.

Don't pay child support? You're out of the loop.
Abuse children? Nope.
Caught DUI multiple times? Fuck yourself, you're done.

(October 1, 2022 at 5:39 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(October 1, 2022 at 3:41 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: The problem is that they are in prison at all? Well, we're never going to get to a place where there are no innocent people in prison, so that's a moot point. The same goes for the death penalty. Even if one innocent is killed on death row, that's one too many, which is why there can be no death penalty.

It sucks to be the victim of injustice, but that's not necessarily a reason not to imprison anyone or even to kill them for very serious crimes.  The government should have this burden-- to match the punishment to the crime, but to accept increasing responsibility of due diligence for the biggest punishments.  That's why death row inmates are there sooooo long, and there are sooo many appeals and so on.

Civilians are much less careful than this, in ways that are so likely to cause injury or death that I think negligence should receive almost the same punishment.  For example, the outcome of driving while using a phone is SO likely to cause harm, that being caught doing so should lead to a prison sentence of several years.  Every few years, some asshole celebrity dies in a sports-car crash, and everyone mourns him.  Fuck that-- we should line up to take turns pissing on his grave because his willingness to launch a Lamborghini into the air for excitement was a threat to us all.

To me it's curious that when a government makes a mistake involving injustice, the world is ending.  But every day, my precious family walk out into a society filled by fuckwits.  I let 300 million other people roll the dice for me-- where a losing roll ends up with something so horrific happening to my family that it will end my happiness in an instant and forever.

Yeah, being wrongly imprisoned for murder SUCKS.  But there were 16,000 homicides in the US-- and it's better to lock up a few people wrongly than to let 16,000 murderous fuckwits roam free.

Being wrongly imprisoned for rape SUCKS.  But there were 85,000 rapes reported in 2010-- and it's better to get a few cases wrong than to let 85,000 rapist fuckwits roam free.

Remember that for every story that runs about a wrongful imprisonment, there are many thousands of very hard, dangerous men behind bars not raping you or killing you for your jewlry for a couple doses of Fentanyl.  Cry for their "human right to vote" when they care about your rights to safety or liberty.

I see where you're coming from, and of course we don't want bad people that are going to hurt others to be free on the streets, but the death penalty and voting rights for prisoners don't really factor into that I don't think. And I don't believe in free will so I think humans are just like bears or any other animal in that we just do what we do, and we can not do otherwise, so I don't believe in killing prisoners for doing something they didn't have a say in that the physics of the universe made them do, but the free will debate is a whole other topic and there is another thread for that, and I don't want to get things too far off topic.

Yeah, dangerous people being on the street and being potential threats to our families is not an idea that I love either, and no one will disagree with that, but a lot of imprisoned people take plea deals when the evidence is pretty questionable at best. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you wouldn't want to lose your own freedom based on lacking evidence, then you shouldn't be ok with anyone else losing theirs, I think, even if they are really guilty but the evidence is just not there to back that up. Those who would give up freedom for a little bit of security, deserve neither, as the saying goes. That's just my personal take on things. Freedom is not free. It always comes at a price. For our own freedom, we have to put up with many criminals getting off scott free for their crimes. I understand that's not a bargain you are necessarily willing to make, but I hope that explains my position a little better at least. And if we want statistics, the Nordic model of compassion for criminals seems to be working over there for them, and seems to be a better system than the one we have, as it leads to less recidivism, so there's that at least to keep in mind. Of course, none of us here want a crime ridden society, but in my opinion at least, the Nordic model seems to be the best in terms of results.

(October 1, 2022 at 6:00 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(September 30, 2022 at 12:34 pm)Angrboda Wrote: The social contract is not an all or nothing thing.  This is just senseless stigmatizing.

Yeah, we don't want to "stigmatize" rapists, murders and drug dealers.  It might hurt their feelings.

Right, because stigmatization contributes to recidivism and is unjustified. You really don't think through the things you say, do you?

On a side note with regarding to free will-- it doesn't matter too much, because it's the whole human system, not just criminals. Philosophies adopted, mores evolved, punishments meted out-- these would ALL be deterministic.

It's a nice little free pass for anyone who wants it, not just criminals-- "Well, if we hang him by his balls and slit his throat-- that's always what we were gonna do. So let's do it."