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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 16, 2022 at 12:31 pm
(October 16, 2022 at 11:59 am)Ahriman Wrote: (October 16, 2022 at 11:54 am)Jehanne Wrote: The belief in transubstantiation, a religious belief, is not necessarily a moral belief. Of course it's a moral belief, Catholics believe they are doing something moral by drinking the blood and eating the body of Christ. A cannibal's morality, if you will.
Any morality with respect to the doctrine of transubstantiation would concern itself with how the consecrated host is treated but the "matter & form" surrounding consecration is not a moral statement by the Catholic Church.
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 16, 2022 at 12:33 pm
(This post was last modified: October 16, 2022 at 12:37 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 16, 2022 at 11:54 am)Jehanne Wrote: (October 16, 2022 at 11:34 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: A religious belief must be a moral belief, whereas a moral belief has no such requirement.
The belief in transubstantiation, a religious belief, is not necessarily a moral belief.
-a superstition. One of my favorite kinds. Ritual magic. However, the ritual magic was invented to serve a moral need of nourishing our souls and connecting us with the divine, without which (it's asserted/believed/proposed), our lives will be degraded. Missives on how to handle (and the proper respect or mindset for) magical objects and the product of rituals is also a normative belief, yes. Thought to be indicative of bad character but also, commonly, believed to negatively impact the performance of the objects , as well.
If you wipe your ass with the cracker and piss in the cup...will it still ward off bad juju? 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 16, 2022 at 1:15 pm
(October 15, 2022 at 2:34 pm)Angrboda Wrote: I just pull it out of my ass, like everybody else.
Yeah, surprisingly enough, Angrboda's arse is a great source of moral teaching.
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 16, 2022 at 1:18 pm
(October 15, 2022 at 4:15 pm)Orbit Wrote: I was raised Christian, so "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is deeply ingrained and I saw no reason to discard that particular bit.
The golden rule's utility is largely because it's older than christianity.
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 16, 2022 at 1:31 pm
(This post was last modified: October 16, 2022 at 2:45 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(October 16, 2022 at 1:18 pm)GUBU Wrote: (October 15, 2022 at 4:15 pm)Orbit Wrote: I was raised Christian, so "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is deeply ingrained and I saw no reason to discard that particular bit.
The golden rule's utility is largely because it's older than christianity.
I think the golden rule harkens all the way back to when two similarly sized reptilian predators in the swamps of the carboniferous era sized each other up, and each calculating “if I don’t try to eat him, maybe he won’t try to eat me”.
religion merely made generations dumb enough to think making cantaloup sized brain do what sunflower seed sized brain had been doing for hundreds of millions of years takes divine inspiration that only itself can provide.
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 16, 2022 at 1:43 pm
(October 16, 2022 at 11:59 am)Ahriman Wrote: (October 16, 2022 at 11:54 am)Jehanne Wrote: The belief in transubstantiation, a religious belief, is not necessarily a moral belief. Of course it's a moral belief, Catholics believe they are doing something moral by drinking the blood and eating the body of Christ. A cannibal's morality, if you will.
Look up transubstantiation. It's the belief that the Eucharist and the wine are actually transformed into the body and blood of Christ. It's not a moral issue.
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 16, 2022 at 3:19 pm
(This post was last modified: October 16, 2022 at 3:22 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 16, 2022 at 12:24 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: (October 16, 2022 at 12:20 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Religions can't start out with bodies of beliefs that are not moral, as a religion is the shared normative code of a given community as they relate to the sacred and the taboo.
There's a fair chance that much of what people consider to be religious is more accurately categorized as superstition - these beliefs are neither explicitly religious nor do they need to be a moral proposition.
No, many religions no doubt started out with an inherited set of beliefs about origins of the world, cause of natural phenomenon, and what is there in the rest of the world outside the immediate environs over which the religion initially held sway. You can call it superstition. But religion is just superstition with some more superstructure built on top of it.
They also tend to start with some body of stories about the founders of the religion. No doubt these stories only made it into the religion at the beginning because some body things it helps to exhibit some unique credentials of the religion, but these are not in themselves necessarily moralistic.
Fairy tales, just so stories, light and heavy euhemerism, these are superstions and other-thans, and, just to be clear, when I refer to religion I am referring only to those sets of shared normative beliefs about the sacred and taboo. We have few direct observations of the formation of a religion - but, to use cargo cults as an example since we did watch those form - the effigies themselves were artifacts of superstition - but the religion of the cargo cult is a religion of reciprocity. An explicitly moral proposition. It may be no different, as you note, than one lizard thinking another lizard might not eat him, ofc.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 16, 2022 at 5:12 pm
(October 16, 2022 at 1:43 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: (October 16, 2022 at 11:59 am)Ahriman Wrote: Of course it's a moral belief, Catholics believe they are doing something moral by drinking the blood and eating the body of Christ. A cannibal's morality, if you will.
Look up transubstantiation. It's the belief that the Eucharist and the wine are actually transformed into the body and blood of Christ. It's not a moral issue. You're a smart woman.
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 17, 2022 at 12:48 pm
(October 16, 2022 at 10:44 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: (October 16, 2022 at 3:24 am)Peebothuhlu Wrote: Before I do anything. I ask myself;
"Would an immoral person do that?"
And if the answer is "Yes", I do not do that thing.
Not at work.
A immoral person breathes and eats.
Thank you Mr Wizard..... 
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RE: As a nonreligious person, where do you get your moral guidance?
October 17, 2022 at 2:36 pm
South Park.
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