Aquinas: [T]he maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. 

I answer that:

A bachelor has a least dirty shirt in his apartment, which is a tautology, but it does not follow that he has a clean shirt. The being with the greatest perfection is not necessarily a being with infinite perfection.

Fire is the cause of all hot things? What about chemical reactions that get hot without fire

(December 31, 2022 at 8:14 pm)zebo-the-fat Wrote: Fire is the cause of all hot things?   What about chemical reactions that get hot without fire

Thomists hate it when you bring out physics from the 19th Century and later.

My favorite fire starter? Soak charcoal briquettes in water and wait. Freaks people out.

(December 31, 2022 at 6:48 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: Aquinas: [T]he maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. 

I answer that:

A bachelor has a least dirty shirt in his apartment, which is a tautology, but it does not follow that he has a clean shirt. The being with the greatest perfection is not necessarily a being with infinite perfection.

I like your answer.  I've also heard that an even greater being could do all of the things that gods are supposed to do but it could do them while not existing, therefore god does not exist.  

Aquinas' argument is total rationalism or reasoning above facts.  The first cause is existence qua existence.  Where does life come from?  Existence.  Where did the earth come from?  Existence.  Where does consciousness come from?  Existence.  It's existence all the way down.  Where did existence come from then?  Blank out.  There's nowhere for it to come from or go to.

(December 31, 2022 at 9:07 pm)Fireball Wrote: My favorite fire starter? Soak charcoal briquettes in water and wait. Freaks people out.

What happens?  Now I'm going to have to try it.

(December 31, 2022 at 8:15 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(December 31, 2022 at 8:14 pm)zebo-the-fat Wrote: Fire is the cause of all hot things?   What about chemical reactions that get hot without fire

Thomists hate it when you bring out physics from the 19th Century and later.

They'll just admit the physics expressed by Aquinas is outdated, but that this nevertheless has no bearing on the argument perse (since it's just an example).

(December 31, 2022 at 11:26 pm)Objectivist Wrote:

(December 31, 2022 at 6:48 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: Aquinas: [T]he maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. 

I answer that:

A bachelor has a least dirty shirt in his apartment, which is a tautology, but it does not follow that he has a clean shirt. The being with the greatest perfection is not necessarily a being with infinite perfection.

I like your answer.  I've also heard that an even greater being could do all of the things that gods are supposed to do but it could do them while not existing, therefore god does not exist.  

Aquinas' argument is total rationalism or reasoning above facts.  The first cause is existence qua existence.  Where does life come from?  Existence.  Where did the earth come from?  Existence.  Where does consciousness come from?  Existence.  It's existence all the way down.  Where did existence come from then?  Blank out.  There's nowhere for it to come from or go to.

According to Aquinas, the first cause is one and the same as existence. So while I'm sure you mean something quite different from what Aquinas argued for, the wording here isn't too different from what he said.

That said, could you elaborate on what you mean by existence here? It seems to be something concrete here, rather than an abstract.

(December 31, 2022 at 11:42 pm)GrandizerII Wrote:

(December 31, 2022 at 11:26 pm)Objectivist Wrote: I like your answer.  I've also heard that an even greater being could do all of the things that gods are supposed to do but it could do them while not existing, therefore god does not exist.  

Aquinas' argument is total rationalism or reasoning above facts.  The first cause is existence qua existence.  Where does life come from?  Existence.  Where did the earth come from?  Existence.  Where does consciousness come from?  Existence.  It's existence all the way down.  Where did existence come from then?  Blank out.  There's nowhere for it to come from or go to.

According to Aquinas, the first cause is one and the same as existence. So while I'm sure you mean something quite different from what Aquinas argued for, the wording here isn't too different from what he said.

That said, could you elaborate on what you mean by existence here? It seems to be something concrete here, rather than an abstract.

The concept 'existence' is an abstraction but it references everything that exists so it's the widest of all abstractions.  When I use the concept in this context it is taken to mean existence as such and not any particular existent.  The concept 'existence' means every concrete, its attributes, its actions, its relationships, everything.

(December 31, 2022 at 6:48 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: Aquinas: [T]he maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. 

I answer that:

A bachelor has a least dirty shirt in his apartment, which is a tautology, but it does not follow that he has a clean shirt. The being with the greatest perfection is not necessarily a being with infinite perfection.

Indeed being the greatest of something does not lead to god.