Here's one of my favorite quotes from a book by Janet Borroway:

It argues the perspective that narrative, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, functions like a sandbox where we can play and explore feelings and behaviors safe from their consequences and repercussion. When we read the story of Judas, for example, we can experience what it is like to betray and feel no remorse without performing that behavior. We can learn from that experience and choose a different set of behaviors in the real world:

"Literature offers us feelings for which we do not have to pay. It allows us to love, condemn, condone, hope, dread, and hate without any of the risks those feelings ordinarily involve; for even good feelings—intimacy, power, speed, drunkenness, passion—have consequences, and powerful feelings may risk powerful consequences."

Fairy tales convey messages. Just ask the Grimm Brothers. As such, use reason to perceive the message while not unreasonably mistaking the story for reality.

(April 2, 2023 at 9:44 pm)Tomato Wrote: use reason

This is the part that seems surprisingly hard for some people. 

I once had a conversation with a rich and successful computer scientist who said he couldn't read the Bible or novels because there was no "reliable algorithm" for determining which sentence is a metaphor and what a symbol might refer to. I actually backed off talking to him because I thought he might be genuinely autistic. 

Another woman told me that she'd read a page or two of James Joyce in high school, decided it was "horrible," and never tried again. The idea that maybe a book isn't accessible to someone in high school, that you might have to make an effort to discover qualities that aren't obvious to a 16-year-old, hadn't occurred to her. If there are serious people who know a hell of a lot about literature and devote years of their lives to James Joyce, it might serve as a hint that there is something worthwhile there. Not that dissenting opinions aren't possible, but that one should remain skeptical of one's own first impressions. 

Likewise the fact that reading the Bible demands an engagement that's different from reading TV Guide seems lost on some people.

God, this shit again, lol. I'm engaging, using thought. Storys antisemitic trash written by folks who really hated jews. Jews suck, lesson learned, right>?

(April 2, 2023 at 11:07 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(April 2, 2023 at 9:44 pm)Tomato Wrote: use reason

This is the part that seems surprisingly hard for some people. 

I once had a conversation with a rich and successful computer scientist who said he couldn't read the Bible or novels because there was no "reliable algorithm" for determining which sentence is a metaphor and what a symbol might refer to. I actually backed off talking to him because I thought he might be genuinely autistic. 

Another woman told me that she'd read a page or two of James Joyce in high school, decided it was "horrible," and never tried again. The idea that maybe a book isn't accessible to someone in high school, that you might have to make an effort to discover qualities that aren't obvious to a 16-year-old, hadn't occurred to her. If there are serious people who know a hell of a lot about literature and devote years of their lives to James Joyce, it might serve as a hint that there is something worthwhile there. Not that dissenting opinions aren't possible, but that one should remain skeptical of one's own first impressions. 

Likewise the fact that reading the Bible demands an engagement that's different from reading TV Guide seems lost on some people.

Yes,  first insinuate people who think little of your attitude to be diseased,   Then blithely gloss over the fact the reading the Bible demands an engagement of the type that is a disgrace to a rational being with a sense of dignity and intellectual honesty.

It’s not lost on anyone.   What is lost on you is they are very aware of why they would not sink so low.

(April 3, 2023 at 9:30 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(April 2, 2023 at 11:07 pm)Belacqua Wrote: This is the part that seems surprisingly hard for some people. 

I once had a conversation with a rich and successful computer scientist who said he couldn't read the Bible or novels because there was no "reliable algorithm" for determining which sentence is a metaphor and what a symbol might refer to. I actually backed off talking to him because I thought he might be genuinely autistic. 

Another woman told me that she'd read a page or two of James Joyce in high school, decided it was "horrible," and never tried again. The idea that maybe a book isn't accessible to someone in high school, that you might have to make an effort to discover qualities that aren't obvious to a 16-year-old, hadn't occurred to her. If there are serious people who know a hell of a lot about literature and devote years of their lives to James Joyce, it might serve as a hint that there is something worthwhile there. Not that dissenting opinions aren't possible, but that one should remain skeptical of one's own first impressions. 

Likewise the fact that reading the Bible demands an engagement that's different from reading TV Guide seems lost on some people.

Yes,  first insinuate people who think little of your attitude to be diseased,   Then blithely gloss over the fact the reading the Bible demands an engagement of the type that is a disgrace to a rational being with a sense of dignity and intellectual honesty.

It’s not lost on anyone.   What is lost on you is they are very aware of why they would not sink so low.

Autism is not a disease.

(March 31, 2023 at 2:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Even better than the original.  The judas bit in magic book was run of the mill roman antipathy towards jews, but Ellen White was a certifiable nutball, lol.

Quote:As they departed from God, the Jews in a great degree lost sight of the teaching of the ritual service. That service had been instituted by Christ Himself. In every part it was a symbol of Him; and it had been full of vitality and spiritual beauty. But the Jews lost the spiritual life from their ceremonies, and clung to the dead forms. They trusted to the sacrifices and ordinances themselves, instead of resting upon Him to whom they pointed. In order to supply the place of that which they had lost, the priests and rabbis multiplied requirements of their own; and the more rigid they grew, the less of the love of God was manifested. They measured their holiness by the multitude of their ceremonies, while their hearts were filled with pride and hypocrisy.

Wow, that is some very ugly stuff.
Are you talking about this person:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White

Where did you find that text?

(April 2, 2023 at 6:54 am)Belacqua Wrote: It seems to me undeniable that, at least in the New Testament, the authors are basing their narratives on things that happened. Jesus was real, and he had some kind of impact on those around him. The extent to which they then mold the story to conform with traditional hero narratives, or invent details for the purpose of making a point, remains open to interpretation. 

Were you a christian before?
What lead you away from christianity?

And if you were never a christian, why not? You do not find the NT convincing that Jesus is the Christ?

So, what do you think happened back then? What did the witnesses of Jesus see? Why did they consider him the Christ?

(April 3, 2023 at 11:18 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Were you a christian before?
What lead you away from christianity?

And if you were never a christian, why not? You do not find the NT convincing that Jesus is the Christ?

So, what do you think happened back then? What did the witnesses of Jesus see? Why did they consider him the Christ?

I was raised completely without religion. I have never signed up to one religion or another. 

There are fantastically wise and intelligent people who are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. etc. There are Christians from whom we should all be learning. People far smarter than I am disagree with one another, and I don't know who is ultimately correct. I am not bigoted enough to say that all the people in a particular religion are irrational or lack dignity and intellectual honesty, so I respect different kinds of people, and I don't sign up to play team sports. 

I don't know exactly what happened during Jesus's lifetime. It requires a great deal of study to distinguish what is history and what is myth. Until we have done that study we have no business declaring what's what. Learning to read properly is a beginning but is not sufficient.

Individual intelligence isn't transferrable to a religion. That there are otherwise intelligent people who believe in magic books isn't the flex you think it is.