(April 11, 2023 at 8:35 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(April 11, 2023 at 7:49 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: ^Much the same.  Though I tried to believe, I just couldn't find anything to prove to me that there was a god or gods.  And if there was, I didn't like them much.

I was expelled from Sunday School for asking awkward questions. "Where did Noah's sons find wives?"

I endured Catechism classes in early elementary then in 6th grade was thrown kicking and screaming into the Catholic school system.  I begged to be allowed to go to the public school...before dad died he admitted making me go to the Catholic school was probably not the best idea and I would have done better all around had I not been forced into it.  Of course, by then he was atheist and that public school ship had sailed for me.

As long as dad paid the tuition they pretty much had to keep me.

Hello.

(April 11, 2023 at 8:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Welcome. The OP raises a very valid experiece. Many people, including many close to me, find the problem of evil  very troubling. And in my deepest grief I feel the abursurdity of existence acutely. IMHO there are reasonable ways to ponder the problem, such as Liebnitz's "Best of All Possible Worlds" defense, weak sauce tho it may be. Personally, I accept that creation must be imperfect since God alone can be perfect. But one does wonder why it must still be so miserable.

A perfect carpenter does not build a crooked cabinet.

(April 11, 2023 at 2:15 pm)Once Wrote: Hi guys, 

Well i seem to be a little bit stuck in the concept of how people actually believe in god, couple of reasons why;

Why did God create people capable of Tyranny, Evil, Anger, Infliction, Argumentation, Aggressive. 

It just proves that  God cannot actually be real, or he would solely be to blame for all of it, as he made it possible.

Like, God made man capable of War, and Warmonger, there for kind of resolves at him as the origin.

I think generally a  lot of the world is generally really scammed by this and can't see it, cheated out of the real things we should believe and directions we should have. 

What do  you think?

Thanks Once

For me,  none of the subjectively objectionable attributes of any god in themselves proves, or even really suggests, his nonexistence.     

what overwhelmingly indicate to me that all god are totally made up and all by classes of bullshitters who are neither very wise nor very deep thinking is the fact no god story even try to cover a reasonable distance to explain how it came to be that any god came to possess the particular set of attributes that characterizes that god, objectionable or not.

the combination of the fact that there are no real evidence of any god yet propounded, and no theoretical basis whatsoever for why any god yet propounded should actually be the way he/she is said to be,  says to me there was never a valid reason to propound any of these gods.

(April 11, 2023 at 8:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Welcome. The OP raises a very valid experiece. Many people, including many close to me, find the problem of evil  very troubling. And in my deepest grief I feel the abursurdity of existence acutely. IMHO there are reasonable ways to ponder the problem, such as Liebnitz's "Best of All Possible Worlds" defense, weak sauce tho it may be. Personally, I accept that creation must be imperfect since God alone can be perfect. But one does wonder why it must still be so miserable.

Why must the creation of a perfect creator be imperfect? How can a perfect creator create anything less than perfect? It is, after all, allegedly "perfect."

ETA: Welcome aboard, @Once.

(April 11, 2023 at 2:15 pm)Once Wrote: Hi guys, 

Well i seem to be a little bit stuck in the concept of how people actually believe in god, couple of reasons why;

Why did God create people capable of Tyranny, Evil, Anger, Infliction, Argumentation, Aggressive. 

It just proves that  God cannot actually be real, or he would solely be to blame for all of it, as he made it possible.

Like, God made man capable of War, and Warmonger, there for kind of resolves at him as the origin.

I think generally a  lot of the world is generally really scammed by this and can't see it, cheated out of the real things we should believe and directions we should have. 

What do  you think?

Thanks Once

We tend not to argue in intro threads, so answering that question of why people believe is likely beyond what can be answered here.  I think, welcome aboard.  There are alot of routes to atheism, and for some of us it's not so much a place we end up as a place we've always been.  Your route appears to be "why god if bad".  Well..maybe gods are shitty.  Think of the shittiest person you know, then give that person superpowers.  What would it look like?  That's not so much a reason to believe that it cannot be as a reason to conclude that it doesn't matter if it is.  Maltheism, rather than atheism.

There's a tendency in our society to casually posit that godhood is goodhood. Sometimes we don't even know we're doing it. Because of this, a person could comfortably decide by looking at my little patch of heaven that I had a good and sacred life - but to do so they would have to ignore all that I had to kill to get it.

(April 11, 2023 at 8:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Personally, I accept that creation must be imperfect since God alone can be perfect. But one does wonder why it must still be so miserable.

Right, lol?  There's a hell of alot of mileage between less miserable and perfect.  Best possible world is actually a favorite of mine. 

Maybe this really is as good as it gets, given a gods particular abilities. Some problems, in this view, are simply intractable...even for a god. That does raise a question. Why don't we worship the very best people just as we worship gods? Whatever it is they cant do, whatever supposed failing they have that makes them unsuitable for worship (especially to the monotheistic and anti-idolatrist eye) are simply not their responsibility and beyond any reasonable expectation. So what gives? Why worship gods despite their fundamental inabilities while rejecting the worship of man for the same reason?

“perfect” as applied to god is just a smarmy meaningless hyperbole which betrays the nonsensical nature of the concept that it is attempts to flatter.

(April 12, 2023 at 12:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(April 11, 2023 at 8:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Personally, I accept that creation must be imperfect since God alone can be perfect. But one does wonder why it must still be so miserable.

Right, lol?  There's a hell of alot of mileage between less miserable and perfect.  Best possible world is actually a favorite of mine. 

Maybe this really is as good as it gets, given a gods particular abilities.  Some problems, in this view, are simply intractable...even for a god.  That does raise a question.  Why don't we worship the very best people just as we worship gods?  Whatever it is they cant do, whatever supposed failing they have that makes them unsuitable for worship (especially to the monotheistic and anti-idolatrist eye) are simply not their responsibility and beyond any reasonable expectation.  So what gives?  Why worship gods despite their fundamental inabilities while rejecting the worship of man for the same reason?

If a perfect creation is an impossibility, then I would argue "so is a perfect god".

Don't even need the preamble in order to land the second bit. Even if a perfect creation were possible, that's not what the gods believed in actually did. Instead, we have this. In this, I think that allegedly beneficent gods are always fighting an uphill battle. So, for example, it;s not when a god is being kind and wise that this god is most relatable and truth adjacent. It's only when god is doing horrid shit by horrible means that we think said god is even credible. Take all of the consequential killing out of magic books..then ask yourself, even cynically, why you would worship their gods? The traditional routine is full carrot and stick. Worship me and be rewarded, fail to worship me and be tortured...but..in reality, it's worship me and be tortured or don't and be tortured. The whole point of inventing heavenly kingdoms is as a sop for what is manifestly not true on earth, but strongly argued to be true..nevertheless...by earthbound cultists.