(June 11, 2023 at 8:18 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're wedded to the idea that gods are like an animal with a brain, and as I said..I don't think you're saying much of consequence or anything strictly true even in that context.

I think it is the most consequential one.    It says no god with whom we can interact can be all powerful, and resorting to god being all powerful to avoid a conundrum means one is full of shit. 

And in no way does the rely one god having what we call a brain.     It stipulates there must be a chain of causes for god to behave in any specific way, and the one step in the chain of causes has inevitably to be god operates under limitation and needed to skirt around the edges of the limitaction he operates under. 

The distinction between want and need is a purely artificial one.     One wants it only because in some manner one needs it.   Creativity is again a meaningless distinction in the context.     One may classify the particular need as born out of a merely elective, or irrational, or frivolous, or creative, process, but the process in place creates the need nonetheless.   Why was the process in place?

(June 11, 2023 at 9:28 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(June 11, 2023 at 8:38 am)emjay Wrote: Even without that assumption though, it seems reasonable to say that 'want' and 'need' imply a lack, so an omni-everything God it seems would want or need nothing, and thus have no reason to create anything?

What you say here is the standard view of the theologians. God lacks nothing, therefore wants and needs nothing. 

Creation is explained through the idea of bonum diffusivum sui -- "goodness spreads itself." 

God is said to be goodness itself, and the nature of goodness is that it spreads goodness to others. (Someone who sat by himself all the time and spread no goodness to anyone else wouldn't be good. Goodness manifests by being good to others.) So they say that God created the world not because he needed something he lacked, but because he was superabundant and emanated the world from his goodness. 

This won't make sense to those who insist on anthropomorphizing God, but it is pretty much the standard view among theologians since Plato.

You can always Count on Bel to be there repeating bullshit with knowing tone of self important gravity to prove he has a lot of dead weight, and imply because he has a lot of dead weight, the discuss ought to, therefore, revolve around him.

(June 11, 2023 at 10:06 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 11, 2023 at 9:28 am)Belacqua Wrote: What you say here is the standard view of the theologians. God lacks nothing, therefore wants and needs nothing. 

Creation is explained through the idea of bonum diffusivum sui -- "goodness spreads itself." 

God is said to be goodness itself, and the nature of goodness is that it spreads goodness to others. (Someone who sat by himself all the time and spread no goodness to anyone else wouldn't be good. Goodness manifests by being good to others.) So they say that God created the world not because he needed something he lacked, but because he was superabundant and emanated the world from his goodness. 

This won't make sense to those who insist on anthropomorphizing God, but it is pretty much the standard view among theologians since Plato.

You can always Count on Bel to be there repeating bullshit with knowing tone of self important gravity to prove he has a lot of dead weight, and imply because he has a lot of dead weight, the discuss ought to, therefore, revolve around him.

Or just sharing a different perspective. Personally I've never seen arguments like this, ie the general arguments of classical theism, so though I don't think it's any more likely to 'convert' me, it's nonetheless interesting to me in some respect. Your mileage obviously differs, but that's mine.

(June 11, 2023 at 9:33 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Yes, limited creatures that have needs and wants, such as us, having difficulting understanding a purely creative act.

Similarly, personal and intervening beings also have needs or wants.  Arguments as to whether they're disqualifying aside....if a person believes that they are, that's going to be a problem, for them, with theistic claims.  

Personally, I think it's a doomed argument either way.  At best, a rationale for why a given person prefers gods that either do or don't have such qualities.  Not a binding argument on what qualities or abilities or attributes (what have you) gods must or do actually have.

(June 10, 2023 at 5:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 10, 2023 at 4:29 pm)WinterHold Wrote: In Islam, God is the creator of good and evil, both serve the same purpose of "shaping the exam of life":



Kids die with Cancer to create the test condition:

1-Either we rebel and become evil in response
2-Or we become better people and use this painful experience to do good deeds

Let me give you an example with 2 different people, let's call them X and Y, both had a son who died from cancer.

X became evil after the experience so he joined a drug gang and went on a rampage of evil deeds.
Y became depressed, but decided to open a philanthropy business to help other kids with chronic and fatal illnesses.

You see? God just created such scenario.
Measure on all bad things that happen in this life, they have a purpose.

In conclusion; God is not a human or even a creature like he is portrayed by many wrong faiths. He is a god, he created both evil and good, life and death, fire and water, up and down.

Why does there have to be a test condition at all? God already knows who is going on a drug rampage and who is going to become a philanthropist. What is the point of killing children with cancer when the outcome is already known? 

Applauding the slow, painful death of children as an opportunity for their parents to serve God makes you a monster. You need to know this.

Boru

In order for God to be "fair and just" like he calls himself; such scenarios must exist and happen.
God knows the conclusion, but the drug dealer doesn't yet know the conclusion.

No. I'm not a monster. I have M.S that cripples me from driving or even having fun with friends. I'm tortured every moment by symptoms of M.S and by seeing people forgetting me and forgetting who I was. Damn sometimes I feel like a ghost.

Back to the topic:
It's all a test to see what we shall do when faced with disasters. It's like God is seeing our response to these disasters, then judge us each with their deed.

(June 11, 2023 at 3:36 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(June 10, 2023 at 5:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Why does there have to be a test condition at all? God already knows who is going on a drug rampage and who is going to become a philanthropist. What is the point of killing children with cancer when the outcome is already known? 

Applauding the slow, painful death of children as an opportunity for their parents to serve God makes you a monster. You need to know this.

Boru

In order for God to be "fair and just" like he calls himself; such scenarios must exist and happen.
God knows the conclusion, but the drug dealer doesn't yet know the conclusion.

No. I'm not a monster. I have M.S that cripples me from driving or even having fun with friends. I'm tortured every moment by symptoms of M.S and by seeing people forgetting me and forgetting who I was. Damn sometimes I feel like a ghost.

Back to the topic:
It's all a test to see what we shall do when faced with disasters. It's like God is seeing our response to these disasters, then judge us each with their deed.

Why do you guys forget god knows everything and WTF dose need to, see our repose?

Seriously?

Did god know before creating me I would not believe in it?


Anything I can do to change what god know my future to be?

(June 11, 2023 at 3:36 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(June 10, 2023 at 5:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Why does there have to be a test condition at all? God already knows who is going on a drug rampage and who is going to become a philanthropist. What is the point of killing children with cancer when the outcome is already known? 

Applauding the slow, painful death of children as an opportunity for their parents to serve God makes you a monster. You need to know this.

Boru

In order for God to be "fair and just" like he calls himself; such scenarios must exist and happen.
God knows the conclusion, but the drug dealer doesn't yet know the conclusion.

No. I'm not a monster. I have M.S that cripples me from driving or even having fun with friends. I'm tortured every moment by symptoms of M.S and by seeing people forgetting me and forgetting who I was. Damn sometimes I feel like a ghost.

Back to the topic:
It's all a test to see what we shall do when faced with disasters. It's like God is seeing our response to these disasters, then judge us each with their deed.

God is also described as 'merciful'. One cannot be both just and merciful (to a large extent, mercy is the denial of justice).

If God knows the conclusion beforehand, what is the point of judging us based on our reaction to disasters? To go a tad further, an omniscient God would know - before the drug dealer in your scenario was ever conceived - how he would turn out. This makes a very strong case that God creates people for the express purpose of damning them.

Being afflicted with MS has nothing to do with you being a monster.

Boru

(June 11, 2023 at 5:20 pm)h4ym4n Wrote:

(June 11, 2023 at 3:36 pm)WinterHold Wrote: In order for God to be "fair and just" like he calls himself; such scenarios must exist and happen.
God knows the conclusion, but the drug dealer doesn't yet know the conclusion.

No. I'm not a monster. I have M.S that cripples me from driving or even having fun with friends. I'm tortured every moment by symptoms of M.S and by seeing people forgetting me and forgetting who I was. Damn sometimes I feel like a ghost.

Back to the topic:
It's all a test to see what we shall do when faced with disasters. It's like God is seeing our response to these disasters, then judge us each with their deed.

Why do you guys forget god knows everything and WTF dose need to, see our repose?

Seriously?

Did god know before creating me I would not believe in it?


Anything I can do to change what god know my future to be?

Yes. He knew non-believers would not believe in him before they're even created.
But in order to make that knowledge correct, the non-believer has to be created and reject faith.

That's why he is called God the all knowing. He knows our moves before we even think about them.
But for he to be truthful and just; we have to be created to satisfy these moves.

Even Albert Einstein theorized that concept scientifically.
Time is an illusion, the past, present and future are instances of the same "Block Universe".


Here, you can read about it here:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/...fa04b755d2

Quote:Einstein has not been not alone in finding this view — where the distinction between past, present and future is not a fundamental feature of reality — to be a great comfort when reflecting on the loss of loved ones.

(June 11, 2023 at 6:06 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(June 11, 2023 at 5:20 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: Why do you guys forget god knows everything and WTF dose need to, see our repose?

Seriously?

Did god know before creating me I would not believe in it?


Anything I can do to change what god know my future to be?

Yes. He knew non-believers would not believe in him before they're even created.
But in order to make that knowledge correct, the non-believer has to be created and reject faith.

That's why he is called God the all knowing. He knows our moves before we even think about them.
But for he to be truthful and just; we have to be created to satisfy these moves.

Even Albert Einstein theorized that concept scientifically.
Time is an illusion, the past, present and future are instances of the same "Block Universe".


Here, you can read about it here:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/...fa04b755d2

Quote:Einstein has not been not alone in finding this view — where the distinction between past, present and future is not a fundamental feature of reality — to be a great comfort when reflecting on the loss of loved ones.

What does god do to the non-believers it intentionally creates?

Whacks their peepees.