Getting a second medical opinion is just smart living. Especially in the case of cancer. Every medical system has their own protocol, states have their own protocols, different doctors do different things based on their knowledge and experience. If you turned it over to god you wouldn't have bothered with a second opinion since it was out of your hands.

I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2009. A new kind, they said, very aggressive, they said. After a bi-lateral mastectomy the medicinal oncologist at Baylor wanted to start chemo right away...like right now. A very intense kind of chemo. I needed to think about it and do some reading. Then my plastic surgeon's office manager put me in touch with a different doctor in a different medical environment. No chemo, no radiation, no recurrence.

The first doctor actually told me there was no blood test they could run to check for levels of cancer cells in my system. Other doctor said that of course there is, it's how they tell if chemo is working or not. Interesting. Hospitals about two miles from each other, totally different situation. As it turns out, I was so anemic after the mastectomy that a round of chemo could well have been my only one.

I left the doctors at Baptist and all their god stuff to go to UT Southwestern and have never regretted that decision for a moment.

I didn't put anything in a god's hands. I made the decision to put my 'faith' in a doctor who didn't lie to me from the jump.

(June 12, 2023 at 12:53 pm)emjay Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 12:17 pm)R-Farmer Wrote: Yes the God of the Bible never once self identifies as omni everything God. but Does self identify as the Alpha and Omega.' The beginning and end to all things. This description describes a God so powerful He can simply call creation into being and has the power and authority to end it all. meaning nothing in this universe has the power or authority to stop him. Making God's will is supreme attribute not his omni everything ability. This also answers the age old question Can god create a rock so big He can not lift it? No matter what the omni everything God does he finds himself in a paradox.. But the God of the Bible being the alpha and Omega can in fact create a rock so big He can not lift it if He wants or Can't if He doesn't want to. As again His will harnesses and limits his power so that He can accomplish anything He desires to.

Let's say, you love peach cobbler. You love it so much you would eat it everyday every meal so long as you lived.. Now let's say you had the will power to make peach cobble a 'sometimes' food. (only on special occasions.) Now do you have the ability to make this discipline a permeant or temporary change? why would God be limited to one or the other is you yourself are not?


funny you said that.. when I started reading I thought of the exact same thing.

Not that it matters much for anything but what I meant by 'permanent', by analogy would be I could willfully choose, to 'blind' myself by closing my eyes, at any time able to undo that choice by opening my eyes... that would be akin to your peach cobbler example presumably, but to truly, permanently lose that power of sight, would be to remove my ability to see.

I personally do not think so. but an argument can be made for those who do think God could chop off his spiritual arm and could/would not let it grow back.
but IDK. I think this whole thing get played out with Jesus being 'cut off' from the Father, but then the resurrection happens so He back, but at the same time is He all the way back or maybe apart of him is gone now.. IDK. So I kinda have to default to the fact that Jesus was 'cut off' and came back seemingly as he was. So that is my official position.. but personally idk.

(June 12, 2023 at 1:02 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 12:17 pm)R-Farmer Wrote: Yes the God of the Bible never once self identifies as omni everything God. but Does self identify as the Alpha and Omega.' The beginning and end to all things. This description describes a God so powerful He can simply call creation into being and has the power and authority to end it all. meaning nothing in this universe has the power or authority to stop him. Making God's will is supreme attribute not his omni everything ability. This also answers the age old question Can god create a rock so big He can not lift it? No matter what the omni everything God does he finds himself in a paradox.. But the God of the Bible being the alpha and Omega can in fact create a rock so big He can not lift it if He wants or Can't if He doesn't want to. As again His will harnesses and limits his power so that He can accomplish anything He desires to.

The Bible says God is omniscient, but it doesn't really depict him that way, so it's fair to say it's limited in some way, perhaps voluntarily. The closest the Bible comes to claiming God is omnibenevolent is 'God is love', which is obviously hightly metaphorical since it's unreasonble to conclude from that verse that God is literally an emotion.

Some bibles (catholic bibles) will translate a phrase like "god's love' into omnibenevolent, especially when people are talking or trying to describe God's love... But God Himself when He speaks of Himself never claims this attribute. In fact there are a list of those (short list) in whom God hates. Pharaoh, Esau (Jacob's brother) Those who commit certain sins. IE God has the freedom to Hate. Then Actions like the 'aerial bombardment' of Sodom and Gomorrah, The flood, The 10 plagues on Egypt, sending bears to maul unruly teens for harassing his prophet, all show a less than omni-benevolent side.

The Bible doesn't claim omnipotence for God either, only that he is very powerful. Powerful enough to create the universe (maybe not that big a flex since it's conceivable that we've already created universes by accident in cyclotrons) and flood the world; that doesn't necessarily mean that he could rearrange the galaxies to spell out 'See, I told you I was real' in English on a whim. Heck, creating the universe and us took him six days, he didn't create everything with a snap of his metaphorical fingers.

So it sounds like your God may not be inherently paradoxical. The story about him in the Bible conflicts with what the available physical evidence says actually happened in many cases; but he's not a married bachelor, not an omniscient, omnipotent being whose attributes contradict each other (if he can do anything he's not foreseen, he's not omniscient; if he can't do anything other than what he's foreseen, he's not omnipotent). This is a big improvement on the standard proposed God of Chritianity. That certainly doesn't mean you're not a Christian, Christianity contains multitudes.[/quote]

(June 12, 2023 at 1:11 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 10:07 am)R-Farmer Wrote: Yes indeedie..

But this works both ways.. From where I stand the fiction is God does not exist. So then that begs the question who is the one who determines what is and is not fiction?

It is not the one, but the weight of evidence and the rule of not hiding implied complexity of a proposition that require explanation behind idiotic assertions.  So no, it does not cut both ways.   The cutting and bleeding out is all on your side.

ok cool.

(June 12, 2023 at 1:17 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 11, 2023 at 3:36 pm)WinterHold Wrote: In order for God to be "fair and just" like he calls himself; such scenarios must exist and happen.
God knows the conclusion, but the drug dealer doesn't yet know the conclusion.

No. I'm not a monster. I have M.S that cripples me from driving or even having fun with friends. I'm tortured every moment by symptoms of M.S and by seeing people forgetting me and forgetting who I was. Damn sometimes I feel like a ghost.

Back to the topic:
It's all a test to see what we shall do when faced with disasters. It's like God is seeing our response to these disasters, then judge us each with their deed.

I think our point is that the child with cancer in your scenario is just a means to the end of testting their parents. In your scenario, the baby was born and got cancer in order to be a test for its parents. The idea is unconscionable.

where does my senecio say God gave the baby cancer to test the parents?

I said or rather referenced what Jesus said that This world is not apart of God's immediate Kingdom. and His will meaning God's will is not followed on Earth as it is followed in Heaven.  This makes Sin and Satan the rulers of this world. I also said the reason we get cancer is because like a copy of a copy of a copy degrades over time so too does the human genome degrade over time.

This degradation is the direct result of the introduction of sin into God's creation. So if you want to be mad at someone be made at the current ruler of this world.

(June 12, 2023 at 1:47 pm)R-Farmer Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 1:17 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I think our point is that the child with cancer in your scenario is just a means to the end of testting their parents. In your scenario, the baby was born and got cancer in order to be a test for its parents. The idea is unconscionable.

where does my senecio say God gave the baby cancer to test the parents?

I said or rather referenced what Jesus said that This world is not apart of God's immediate Kingdom. and His will meaning God's will is not followed on Earth as it is followed in Heaven.  This makes Sin and Satan the rulers of this world. I also said the reason we get cancer is because like a copy of a copy of a copy degrades over time so too does the human genome degrade over time.

This degradation is the direct result of the introduction of sin into God's creation. So if you want to be mad at someone be made at the current ruler of this world.

It's Winterhold's scenario. I understand your view is different from his.

(June 12, 2023 at 1:20 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 11, 2023 at 6:06 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Yes. He knew non-believers would not believe in him before they're even created.
But in order to make that knowledge correct, the non-believer has to be created and reject faith.

That's why he is called God the all knowing. He knows our moves before we even think about them.
But for he to be truthful and just; we have to be created to satisfy these moves.

Please pass this suggestion on to God: Do not create people who are going to turn out damned. Just skip those. Unless what you're saying is that Allah is unable to actualize the saved people without also actualizing the damned people?

Again God does not hand build/create people. He hasn't created anything/anyone since day 6 of creation.

Rather Jesus in mat 13 explains a parable how we are all seeds.. And He plants wheat seeds (sons of righteousness) and His enemy the devil plants tares/weed seeds. on the earth/field. 
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

(June 12, 2023 at 1:24 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 10:12 am)R-Farmer Wrote: And if this world is outside of God's immediate kingdom for a reason? a Place where His will is not done here on Earth as it is In Heaven?

Any idiot can “if” his way into making any ridiculous proposition seem less ridiculous.   Why is a particular idiot such as your self doing so?

Because Jesus in the first part of Luke 11 teaches this world is outside of God's immediate kingdom, and his will is not done on earth as it is in heaven.

(June 12, 2023 at 1:29 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I truly want to be in heaven, if there is one, and the alternative is hell, if there is one.

Well the bad news is none of us will live in heaven. We are to actually live on Earth after Judgment with Jesus as our King.. Do you believe in earth? If so you are 1/2 way there.

Quote:The problem is, I don't think they're real. Not the Buddhist or Muslim versions either. The NT assumes hell, but it never lays out evidence or reasoning to support its existence.

Kinda don't need any of that when the Authority on it says it is so.
You are trying to apply a scientific standard on a promise that was introduced before science. meaning why would it meet scientific standards of proof before science was invented?

Quote:It didn't have to, it was a given that people in the region believed in the hell that Jesus described, or at least Hades as the Romans believed. I don't want to suffer forever, but I can't think of a good reason to believe anyone will. I can see why someone raised to believe it would; but I don't see why someone who never heard of it would find it plausible.

if you want a reason ask god to give you one. ask him to show you the gates of hell. more than one person alive has had a vision of what is to come. Even if this does not meet the scientific standards you think you need, it will be real enough for you.

(June 12, 2023 at 1:30 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 1:29 pm)R-Farmer Wrote: And if there is no free will?

Nothing in the Bible ever says we have free will. In fact the doctrine of free will was not adopted by the church for several hundred years after the life and ministry of Christ. Jesus and the Apostle Paul (responsible for 2/3s of the NT) both say we are slaves to sin. A slaves will is never free. It is always subject to the will of his master.

We at best have the freedom to choose. Like A serve God and righteousness or B Remain in service to sin and satan. Free will would be the ability to choose a third option C neither serve God nor satan. To be left alone for eternity. or D to just wink out of existence. no pain no hell. But again we do not have these options because we do not have free will but rather the freedom to choose between the options our master has given us.

If you serve God you get to make quite a few more choices than if you serve sin and satan.

Freedom to choose is what free will IS.

if you can't see how the word free choice is being used here then let go with compelled choice, that you are free to choose either one of the 2 compelled options. Because I am not describing what you are. We have to choose one or the other even if the choice is made by default.