(June 12, 2023 at 11:29 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: What you appear to mean up there, is that morality is relative.  The description you give is not the description of objective morality.  I don't personally agree with metaethical relativism.  

Sorry, to many spinning plates. I get those two them backwards sometime.. yes I mean relative morality.

Quote:Ultimately, though, I really can't argue with you here.  If you believe that this morality stuff is all bunk, and that things like "no ethnic cleansing" and "no cross border child sex slave raids" are not objective standards, or worthy standards, or are standards that a god could not or would not meet or be obliged by - that's just you telling me what kind of god you believe in, and what you're willing to do to avoid death.

Again these things are evil because the majority of society says they are. When Society changes these things are normalized. 

Not to start a political debate, but just look at the turn society has made in the last 10 years concerning Trans issues and how we have now embraced and encourage trans people and related behavior in and around our children. Meaning what was identifiable in medical books as being a mental disorder to being what the cool kids are doing now.

To take it even a step further, there is a segment of society who want to be identifies with the LGBT that allows adults to have sex with small children. If morality was not relative then why isn't this behavior punished to the same severity it was 20 years ago? or let's say like it is still being punished in none western countries?

There is a standard beyond morality, and that is God's righteousness. Unlike morality it does not ever change, which is why a 'moral soceity' can look at God/Righteousness and claim it is immoral or rather simply goes against what the majority thinks is right and wrong.

Quote:If all of this stuff is true, this probably explains why I couldn't be a christian even if I wanted to.

If you see your current form of morality as the standard of standards the ultimate form of right and wrong I could indeed see how it would prevent you from every being christian. Because you would have to disown or go back on every morally based decision you have ever made in your life and reevaluate it or yourself.. This will be immeasurably harder if you see yourself as a 'good person.'  

What this really means however, is you more often than not default follow the standard of right and wrong set fourth by society, and if you can't challenge this standard with any other like say God's standard, then that means you by nature can only be as 'moral' as your society is.

So that begs the question.. If you were born say in North Korea instead of here.. would you also be a equally 'moral person' living in that society? Meaning, one who does not question or challenge that society's moral standards. like you could not challenge this society's morality for God. If it is not in your nature to currently challenge everything you know to be right and wrong now.. what makes you think if you were from birth, programmed to follow the leadership of the Kim family without Question that you would be able question North Korean morality?

Then that begs the question what makes you think your western values are in fact the ultimate standard of right and wrong?

Quote:What accounting do you think is required?  It's just a narrative discontinuity - not a challenge.  Presumably, god had a change of heart between old and new magic books.  One of many, really.  

The accounting I am referring to is the reason for the 'orbital bombardment' being pushed by to judgement day. why god doesn't take his retribution now as He did in the OT.

Quote:What I gather from you is that it was to help guys like you cheat death?  For me...no point at all - and that's kind of the point from the outside looking in, eh?  What was the point of the sacrifice on the cross, if man must not become immortal?

not become immortal in his sinful state.[/quote][/quote]

(June 11, 2023 at 3:36 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(June 10, 2023 at 5:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Why does there have to be a test condition at all? God already knows who is going on a drug rampage and who is going to become a philanthropist. What is the point of killing children with cancer when the outcome is already known? 

Applauding the slow, painful death of children as an opportunity for their parents to serve God makes you a monster. You need to know this.

Boru

In order for God to be "fair and just" like he calls himself; such scenarios must exist and happen.
God knows the conclusion, but the drug dealer doesn't yet know the conclusion.

No. I'm not a monster. I have M.S that cripples me from driving or even having fun with friends. I'm tortured every moment by symptoms of M.S and by seeing people forgetting me and forgetting who I was. Damn sometimes I feel like a ghost.

Back to the topic:
It's all a test to see what we shall do when faced with disasters. It's like God is seeing our response to these disasters, then judge us each with their deed.

I think our point is that the child with cancer in your scenario is just a means to the end of testting their parents. In your scenario, the baby was born and got cancer in order to be a test for its parents. The idea is unconscionable.

(June 12, 2023 at 12:16 pm)h4ym4n Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 11:57 am)R-Farmer Wrote: says who? Cancer is a corruption in our cells.. corruptions like when you make a photo copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.. 

God does not hand build us. in fact He has not created anyone or anything since day 6 of creation. Not even Jesus was hand built. God created man kind on day 6 and gave us the ability to reproduce. we are all reproductions of what God crated, and over time we are starting to degenerate.


My lines are drawn for me scripturally. If God did in fact 'bless people with cancer' then it would be something I would have to reconcile with my beliefs. As it is however the only entity 'blessing/targeting people' personal afflictions is Satan in the book of Job, where again God removes a shield from around one of his people and Sin and Satan plague an individual simply because he wanted to win a bet.

we live in a world that was forged and directly benefited from firebombing civilians (The Old, women, Children, hospitals etc) literally living in wood and paper houses. it is suspected that tens of thousands of people died in the firebombing campaign of Tokyo over 2 nights... How can anyone alive today who lives and benefits from living in the west be critical of God destroying his enemy with sulfur when we used napalm to do the very same thing, but to tens of thousands time more than what God did??

Or maybe it is like Jesus says in the book of Luke Where this world is not apart of God's immediate Kingdom and His will is not done here on Earth as it is in Heaven. Or like the almost 30 other verses in the Bible says this world is satan's domain, it is currently His kingdom. As satan is not like the antagonist of greek or roman mythology and rules the under world. satan in the Bible is the master of this world and everyone born to this world till we elect to be redeemed and serve God.

I hate to rock your arm chair or theory. As My Grandmother died of it on my mother side with intestinal cancer. (she had only been to the doctor 2 times in her 98 years. Once after a car accident where she was impaled on the gear shift lever, and for abdominal pain. This cancer killed her 1 week after she was admitted. My dad had it in his nose. my mother just completed 3 months of radiation in December for her pallet and optic nerve in her right eye.   

I went in for a blood test and urine test some years back. and I showed blood in the urine and high white cell count 16K. Normal being between 4k and 10k. So this set off a series of specialists. my first urologist/hematologists. was very eager to perform as many procedures as possible and set me up for the gambit. at the end He concluded that I had "98% chance of None Hodgkins lymphoma." and wanted to start treatment asap.. so I prayed and more or less turned it all over to God. a "your will be done" situation. We sought a second opinion which included a DNA cancer test (like Angelina Jolie got) and a bone marrow biopsy and several more cat scans. They said in addition to the high white cell count I either did or did not have some protein or maybe it was some marker I was supposed to have \or not.. I don't remember now. but the point was that they said If I had this brand of lymphoma it was early enough to wait. to see where it will come up and target that. verses what the first guy wanted to do which was cook me with radiation and kemo. So over the next 5 years I was poke prodded scanned every 3 to 6 months.  Turns out My white cell count is not normal/doesnt fall in the normal range. 

So for that 5 years I was in limbo not knowing if I had cancer or not. Either way I decided it would not matter one way or the other I was going to live my life to the best of my ability

“Not even Jesus was hand built”

When did god invent jesus?

2000 years ago?

Adam was literally 'hand built' by God. form out of the dust of the earth. I'm saying no one else including Jesus was made that way. Jesus was born just like everyone else. a result of the reproductive process. So again not created by god but born through the process of reproduction making him essentially a copy of what God created.

(June 12, 2023 at 12:35 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 10, 2023 at 8:24 am)R-Farmer Wrote: and if sin is less of a crime and more of a Spiritual infection or virus? Does a doctor always prescribe different medicine for the same disease or infection? Just because you may have different symptoms or different severity of symptoms doesn't always mean you have a different virus or infection.

The same is true for spiritual infection of sin. Just because your symptoms of the spiritual sin infection we all have are different, it doesn't mean the treatment should be different (what is needed to over come this spiritual infection) Nor does it mean that if we don't get treated it will keep us from death. As the end result of a fully developed sin infection is death.

So sin is a virus God cannot defeat unless we go through some kind of rigamarole?

Less of a does not, more of a will not. as the virus serves a purpose of separating those obedient and willing to serve god from those who do not/are not.

Quote:I get why a human doctor would need me to agree to take a vaccine, but I don't get why such a consideration would apply to an omnipotent being.

because God only wants those in Heaven who truly want to be there. If you can't be compelled to take said vaccine, then maybe Heaven is not for you. Not everyone is supposed to be or will be saved.

(June 11, 2023 at 6:06 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(June 11, 2023 at 5:20 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: Why do you guys forget god knows everything and WTF dose need to, see our repose?

Seriously?

Did god know before creating me I would not believe in it?


Anything I can do to change what god know my future to be?

Yes. He knew non-believers would not believe in him before they're even created.
But in order to make that knowledge correct, the non-believer has to be created and reject faith.

That's why he is called God the all knowing. He knows our moves before we even think about them.
But for he to be truthful and just; we have to be created to satisfy these moves.

Please pass this suggestion on to God: Do not create people who are going to turn out damned. Just skip those. Unless what you're saying is that Allah is unable to actualize the saved people without also actualizing the damned people?

(June 12, 2023 at 10:12 am)R-Farmer Wrote:

(June 10, 2023 at 5:42 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: The contradiction is all powerful entity would have no reason to ever come to behave in any specific way.   Any attempt to explain how such an entity come to behave in any manner attributed to him inescapably and implicitly implies limitations in the entity’s power had compelled the entity to behave in a specific way to circumvent some effects of these limitations.

And if this world is outside of God's immediate kingdom for a reason? a Place where His will is not done here on Earth as it is In Heaven?

Any idiot can “if” his way into making any ridiculous proposition seem less ridiculous.   Why is a particular idiot such as your self doing so?

(June 12, 2023 at 1:20 pm)R-Farmer Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 12:35 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: So sin is a virus God cannot defeat unless we go through some kind of rigamarole?

Less of a does not, more of a will not. as the virus serves a purpose of separating those obedient and willing to serve god from those who do not/are not.

Quote:I get why a human doctor would need me to agree to take a vaccine, but I don't get why such a consideration would apply to an omnipotent being.

because God only wants those in Heaven who truly want to be there. If you can't be compelled to take said vaccine, then maybe Heaven is not for you. Not everyone is supposed to be or will be saved.

I truly want to be in heaven, if there is one, and the alternative is hell, if there is one. The problem is, I don't think they're real. Not the Buddhist or Muslim versions either. The NT assumes hell, but it never lays out evidence or reasoning to support its existence. It didn't have to, it was a given that people in the region believed in the hell that Jesus described, or at least Hades as the Romans believed. I don't want to suffer forever, but I can't think of a good reason to believe anyone will. I can see why someone raised to believe it would; but I don't see why someone who never heard of it would find it plausible.

(June 12, 2023 at 12:39 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 12:31 pm)R-Farmer Wrote: If show me a home movie of a trip you took with your family to Disney, and you know how it all goes and what will happen next, does it mean you did not have the ability to choose what to do when things were playing out for the first time?

That's an interesting analogy, but it's foreknowledge that limits free will, not hindsight. Could that have done anything on that trip other than what God foresaw they would do?

And if there is no free will?

Nothing in the Bible ever says we have free will. In fact the doctrine of free will was not adopted by the church for several hundred years after the life and ministry of Christ. Jesus and the Apostle Paul (responsible for 2/3s of the NT) both say we are slaves to sin. A slaves will is never free. It is always subject to the will of his master.

We at best have the freedom to choose. Like A serve God and righteousness or B Remain in service to sin and satan. Free will would be the ability to choose a third option C neither serve God nor satan. To be left alone for eternity. or D to just wink out of existence. no pain no hell. But again we do not have these options because we do not have free will but rather the freedom to choose between the options our master has given us.

If you serve God you get to make quite a few more choices than if you serve sin and satan.

(June 12, 2023 at 1:29 pm)R-Farmer Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 12:39 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: That's an interesting analogy, but it's foreknowledge that limits free will, not hindsight. Could that have done anything on that trip other than what God foresaw they would do?

And if there is no free will?

Nothing in the Bible ever says we have free will. In fact the doctrine of free will was not adopted by the church for several hundred years after the life and ministry of Christ. Jesus and the Apostle Paul (responsible for 2/3s of the NT) both say we are slaves to sin. A slaves will is never free. It is always subject to the will of his master.

We at best have the freedom to choose. Like A serve God and righteousness or B Remain in service to sin and satan. Free will would be the ability to choose a third option C neither serve God nor satan. To be left alone for eternity. or D to just wink out of existence. no pain no hell. But again we do not have these options because we do not have free will but rather the freedom to choose between the options our master has given us.

If you serve God you get to make quite a few more choices than if you serve sin and satan.

Freedom to choose is what free will IS.

(June 12, 2023 at 1:17 pm)R-Farmer Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 12:16 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: “Not even Jesus was hand built”

When did god invent jesus?

2000 years ago?

Adam was literally 'hand built' by God. from out of the dust of the earth. I'm saying no one else including Jesus was made that way. Jesus was born just like everyone else. a result of the reproductive process. So again not created by god but born through the process of reproduction making him essentially a copy of what God created.

So to be clear, jesus was invented 2000 years ago? 

When did god invent h ghost? Was it hand built by god or did god have sex with something?

Sure if jesus existed he was born but Jesus is the byproduct of a spirit impregnating a young virgin. Right?