This should be an easy comparison, though we're still in the grips of theocratic revisionists, the great us has been shattered even in the minds of american christers. We've become comfortable, or more comfortable, with the idea that the things that the us has laid claim over were not, in fact, actually products of americana. A world without the us would not be a world without cars or planes or "freedom". That we had no exclusivity on them, that we did many (or even most of them) for reasons we no longer acknowledge or would accept, and that the whole time we gaslit anyone with ears to listen about them. That we routinely failed, even on our own jingoistic terms.

Now, personally, I can still believe in an american greatness, just as I'm sure christians can still believe in a christian greatness. The difference, apparently, is that I don't need the lies to prop up my own beliefs, beliefs which hold even in the face of the truth plainly spoken. Took what, 2-300 hundred years to get there, christians have had more than twice as long and don't seem to have made it halfway yet. Incapable of even considering a reality where they've been propagandized into believing that a bunch of bickering warlords and criminal enterprises were...somehow...the light of civilization through tough times which happened for no particular reason whatsoever.

Thank GOD christianity was here to save us from our christian world! Just like they saved all those pagans.

There's a perfect analog in contemporary us politics for it, too - that neatly combines both examples.... where people who vote against a thing go home and loudly crow about all the money they got for their constituents..and wouldn't you know it, they keep telling us that the reason they had to vote against the thing they very much want credit for is "because christian". This, is how I see that. Whatever, we have no choice but to drag you retrograde fuckers along with us, but we don't have to grovel and defer to your bullshit in the process.

(July 25, 2023 at 10:32 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: We keep hearing, from Christians mainly, that Christianity has been, for the most part, a positive force in the world.

I dispute that, and would be happy to have anyone post anything good that Christianity has contributed to humanity or the world in general.

Of course, anyone can feel free to dispute, debate, or otherwise shut down any claims.

Also, feel free to list anything that Christianity has done to damage the planet or humanity.

This thread is open to all varieties of Christianity, from Catholics to Mormons to Johos.

And...


GO!

Death cults!

(July 25, 2023 at 11:58 pm)Nishant Xavier Wrote: Abolition of Infanticide and Slavery, Establishment of Charities and Hospitals at a rate unprecedented in the ancient pagan world (Roman Empire) and much more.

I recommend 2 Great Books (1) How Christianity changed the world by Prof Alvin Schmidt
(2) How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization by Professor Thomas Woods.

https://www.amazon.in/Christianity-Chang...0310264499
https://www.amazon.in/Catholic-Church-Bu...1596983280

Both written by Western Scholars though the above links are to Amazon India. I ordered both these books recently and read them and they're excellent imo.

Christianity did exactly none of those things. In fact it was societies turning away from christianity that enacted those things.

@ death cults

They didn't even come up with that shit...they just really really liked it.

Woods a partisan extremist who couldn't do honest research if his life depended on it.

(July 28, 2023 at 10:45 am)Aegon Wrote:

(July 27, 2023 at 7:57 am)Angrboda Wrote: Donald Trump argues that he won Arizona.

What? Lol. I don't even care about this topic all that much but this is an absurd response. I imagine a historian has better ground to stand on for his history opinion than Trump does for his electoral opinion.

People flippantly dismissing Holland's book simply show that they don't really care about the issue.

Holland has a double first degree from Cambridge. His subject was literature at that time, but you don't get a double first in any subject if you're not a serious scholar.

Since leaving Cambridge he has written several books about ancient times. These have all been well reviewed and won multiple prizes. He reads the original sources in Greek and Latin. He has said that while researching the era, he found that he was surprised by his reaction: he really despised the values of the time, and wondered why our own values are so different. After much research, he concluded that Christianity changed things. 

He is of course not saying that Christianity is perfect, or has ever fully lived up to the values he admires. 

He wrote an entire book demonstrating his point, that the values of the classical world were different from ours, and not something we'd want to go back to. And how the thing that made the difference was Christianity. 

It has been very well reviewed. When I read it I wished it had gone into more detail, but it was clearly written with a more popular audience in mind. It's not one of those big fat scholarly books that cost $150. 

There are of course other scholars who disagree with him. That's because for whatever position it's possible to hold about history, there are going to be scholars who disagree with it. However, both Holland and those who disagree are capable of laying out reasons, and making strong arguments for their positions. Just saying that Holland should stop drinking, or comparing him to Trump, is not a mature response.

People shouldn’t say such silly things if they need to be taken seriously.

(July 28, 2023 at 5:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: People shouldn’t say such silly things if they need to be taken seriously.

Don't be silly.