(August 19, 2023 at 11:46 am)LinuxGal Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 11:33 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: No one needs to actually get baptized by water, according to the RCC. 

I used to help run the RCIA program at Holy Trinity.   Let me show you what the Catechism says about this.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude

But by all means come to an atheist forum and teach error.  This is expected of believers. 

Unfortunately, you never read the entire Catechism. 
Baptism includes Baptism of Desire, and Implicit Baptism of Desire. 
1257 specifically does NOT address those to whom the gospel has NOT been proclaimed.  

Let me show YOU what the Catechism says about this.
Read 1258. 
“The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.”


https://ronconte.com/2015/02/01/roman-ca...of-desire/
"There are a few different ways that a person might receive an implicit baptism of desire.

1. Persons who love God, might not know about the Sacrament of baptism, such as the Israelites who lived before Christ. Their desire for baptism is partially implicit, since they do know and desire God in love. They explicitly love God, and implicitly desire baptism.
1 Corinthians 10
{10:1} For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and they all went across the sea.
{10:2} And in Moses, they all were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea.
{10:3} And they all ate of the same spiritual food.
{10:4} And they all drank of the same spiritual drink. And so, they all were drinking of the spiritual rock seeking to obtain them; and that rock was Christ.

2. Persons who know about the Sacrament of Baptism, but who — with a sincere but mistaken conscience — do not believe that Christianity and baptism are the path to salvation. If they love God, they explicitly desire the path to God and to salvation, which implicitly includes baptism. Again, this type of baptism of desire is only partially implicit. They explicitly love God, and implicitly desire baptism.

3. Persons who do not believe in Christianity or God — due to a sincere but mistaken conscience — but who love their neighbor selflessly. Their true love of others implicitly includes the love of God, and all who truly love God desire the path to salvation, which includes baptism. This type of baptism of desire is fully implicit, since the person implicitly loves God by loving their neighbor and implicitly desires baptism.

Saint Thomas taught the implicit baptism of desire in Summa Theologica III, Q. 68, A. 4.

Quote:Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fullness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, “He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment,” a gloss says: “He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism.”

Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96:[/font][/size]

Quote:“Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment.”

Therefore, a baptism of desire can also be obtained by implicit perfect contrition for past sins. The baptism of desire does not imprint the baptismal character on the soul, nor does it forgive all temporal punishment due for sin. So the formal Sacrament is better.

Pope Pius IX in the encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore:

Quote:“There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

Quote:A person can only be sent to eternal punishment in Hell by deliberate sin, and, as Pope Benedict XII taught in On the Beatific Vision of God (1336), that sin must be “actual mortal sin”. So non-Christians do not go to Hell for refusing, out of invincible ignorance, a formal Baptism into the Christian Faith.

I'm not a believer. I'm simply pointing out that according to THEIR theology, honest sincere atheists are "saved" in their system, by THEIR authority.

(August 19, 2023 at 1:50 am)Barry Wrote: Hi Astreja, 
I don’t tell anyone what they think or believe.

Then kindly retract your statement "The problem for humankind is that they don’t want to feel responsible to God, despite knowing in their hearts God exists." In my eyes, that's libel. Your post is literally accusing me of knowing something that I do not and never have "known", and also maligning my character.

Quote:If matter or energy existed for ever, from infinity, how could we arrive at the present. The answer for me is a God who exists outside of time.

Inserting a god into the equation solves nothing. If your alleged god existed forever, from infinity, and matter and energy didn't also exist, your god would be literally powerless. Even a god would need energy to do, well, anything at all.

Ka-Boom Barry

(August 19, 2023 at 6:07 am)Barry Wrote: I’m not sure why there is so much hostility to God.

It's rather hard to be hostile towards a fictional being.

Very easy to be hostile to religious people worldwide who are trying to make their beliefs the law of the land.

(August 19, 2023 at 1:50 am)Barry Wrote: The answer for me is a God who exists outside of time.

No less or more plausible than a universe that exists outside the laws of logic. Why do you prefer one to the other?

(August 18, 2023 at 8:12 pm)Barry Wrote:

(August 18, 2023 at 8:02 pm)Ravenshire Wrote: Holy fuck, but I get tired of hearing this from every smarmy, self-righteous christer nut-job that shoves their nose in here.

How 'bout you offer up some actual, testable, verifiable evidence for your gawd and shove your canned spam right up your ass, sideways if it'll fit.

Hi Raven
Thanks for your learned comments. Theists are invited to this forum. Perhaps you are on the wrong one. 
I’m just saying God created the world. What is your view? Did the universe just happen from nothing? Is that evidence based? 
The burden of proof is not just on me. 
Educate me. Tell me. 
God Bless Barry

You're invited here to join in discussions, not to tell us what we feel and think. That make you an arrogant twat.

As for the science, your ineducable.

ETA: The name's Ravenshire, not the diminutive you're trying to stick me with in your arrogant presumption.

(August 19, 2023 at 6:07 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 4:29 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: God is a cop out.   Even worse, it is not just a cop out, it merely have the superficial appearance of a cop out.  Under the hood it is a deeply malevolent purposed falsehood.

I’m not sure why there is so much hostility to God. “Malevolent” is a very judgmental word. A “purposeful falsehood”, really. God offers hope. Atheism offers a meaning less death, and life really. 
Cheers Barry

The hostility is not to the fiction of god,  it is to those who created and propogated the fiction

(August 19, 2023 at 12:14 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: A person can only be sent to eternal punishment in Hell by deliberate sin, and, as Pope Benedict XII taught in On the Beatific Vision of God (1336), that sin must be “actual mortal sin”. So non-Christians do not go to Hell for refusing, out of invincible ignorance, a formal Baptism into the Christian Faith.

Q. Is there a way for newborn babies to avoid hell if they die before they are baptized?
Catholic Church: "God I hope so."

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

(August 19, 2023 at 1:51 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 12:14 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: A person can only be sent to eternal punishment in Hell by deliberate sin, and, as Pope Benedict XII taught in On the Beatific Vision of God (1336), that sin must be “actual mortal sin”. So non-Christians do not go to Hell for refusing, out of invincible ignorance, a formal Baptism into the Christian Faith.

Q. Is there a way for newborn babies to avoid hell if they die before they are baptized?
Catholic Church: "God I hope so."

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Totally irrelevant. LOL. Desperation.
I can't help it if you were as usual an incompetent amateur RCIA employee. 
We're talking about ADULT RATIONAL educated sincere atheists who have according to the CCC complete freedom of conscience.  
Not babies. 
Do try to keep up here.

(August 19, 2023 at 11:33 am)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 11:21 am)LinuxGal Wrote: So babies don't need to be forgiven of original sin, is what you are teaching here.

Hi LG, 

No one needs to actually get baptized by water, according to the RCC. 
In fact no one even needs anything to do with any religious anything.

Missing mass is a mortal misdeed, my man.