Quote:If matter or energy existed for ever, from infinity, how could we arrive at the present. The answer for me is a God who exists outside of time.

This assumes you can't travel on infinite this is simply unproven at best and in terms of math false at worst. and no entropy isn't an issue as it's based on assumption about how our current state of the universe works you can't apply that to a different or even pre state of the universe.

(August 20, 2023 at 4:57 pm)Barry Wrote: Hi all
There have been many demands that I show evidence that God exists.

Drum Roll ……..

The Universe

Cheers Barry

You fallacy is affirming the consequent. This logic:

If God, then the universe.
The universe, therefore God.

is the same as this logic:

If the lamp is broken, the room will be dark.
The room is dark, therefore the lamp is broken.

Your argument presupposes that God is the only explanation for the universe; which is exactly what's in question.

(August 20, 2023 at 7:52 pm)Barry Wrote:

(August 20, 2023 at 7:44 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: So, you MAY have created it, and I want to destroy it.

I'm the Anti-Astreja!

Hi Astreja
Tell me how you did it. Start with the Big Bang and work backwards. 
Cheers Barry

Demanding an explanation from the Creator of the universe? Cheeky.

(August 20, 2023 at 8:04 pm)Barry Wrote:

(August 20, 2023 at 5:40 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Barry,
How is it you chose the ancient Babylonian deity, Yahweh, the son of El Elyon and the Genesis myths to be your god and scripture ?

Bball, it’s always lovely to hear from you. 
I suppose I see no other rational option. Jesus Christ certainly influenced me. 
If you come up with better evidence for our world existing I’ll ready to learn. 
God loves you,
Barry

Did Jesus use "gotcha" arguments to preach ?

(August 20, 2023 at 11:56 pm)Barry Wrote: Hi everyone 
I’ve been busy saving the world from unnecessary apostrophe’s.

If God doesn’t exist, and the world just happened as an accident, or always was an accident, why does anyone care about what I say. You all dismiss it as nonsense. 

But to say the burden of proof is on me is cowardly. 

You all admit you don’t know or it’s not true. Or are you keeping it a secret. OK, tell me I’m wrong. But to deny the existence of God and have no answer yourself is not a convincing position. 

I’m not sure why this forum exists. I can’t see any evidence of contributors trying to work out how the universe began. That would seem worthwhile. If you are not sure, why be on the forum at all, unless to find out. Abusing me for my modest comments does not seem very constructive. 

But ignore me and prove to each other how the universe began, whether it was made by God or it’s just and amazing random occurrence. 
God loves you
Barry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_...hilosophy)

(August 21, 2023 at 1:18 am)Barry Wrote: I remain amazed that a group of people can live in this amazing universe made by god, and insist someone else has to prove how it happened. You seem a rather intelligent group, albeit rather verbally abusive in some cases, do you enjoy living in blissful ignorance and getting upset if someone questions you?
Ok, I’m saying God created the world. My evidence is the universe.
You can deny my proof. Fair enough. But unless you have some other theory, where does that leave you. Having a club of people who all agree that no one has proved God exists? It would make sense if your mission is to prove or disprove it yourselves.

God bless you
Barry

If I claimed the origin of the universe was a quantum fluctuation, I've got no business expecting anyone to believe me unless I proved it. I could write a successful book on the subject and still not have proved it. There are many hypotheses for the origin and existence of the universe that have math that works and don't contradict the laws of physics; but as yet we have no means of testing them. It's premature to bet on one cosmological horse before the evidence to support one over another is available.

But you have made the choice to proclaim that you know the answer, and accuse us of cowardice for pointing out that doing so places the burden of proof on you when that's just how burder of proof works.

Our common mission is to discuss things, using logic and evidence where applicable. When you offer logical non sequiturs instead of sound arguments; we're doing you a favor when we educate you on that. It's an opportunity for you to learn how to present sound arguments instead of fallacious ones. An opportunity you choose to waste.

(August 21, 2023 at 9:39 am)Angrboda Wrote: A universe that occurs by chance is arbitrary.  A god that just exists is equally arbitrary.  I think the problem is more one of expecting answers to come from places that they cannot come.

Right, and what are the odds that God would choose this exact universe to create when it had infinite choices? Seems super improbable that this one was optimum.

(August 21, 2023 at 3:09 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(August 21, 2023 at 9:39 am)Angrboda Wrote: A universe that occurs by chance is arbitrary.  A god that just exists is equally arbitrary.  I think the problem is more one of expecting answers to come from places that they cannot come.

Right, and what are the odds that God would choose this exact universe to create when it had infinite choices? Seems super improbable that this one was optimum.

I'm sure that there are those who are more critical to God's plans than others, so I wouldn't ask him to detract from his aim, but surely there are lesser beings who he could inconvenience to my benefit.

(August 21, 2023 at 11:38 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: If things could not have ever been otherwise than what then I'm not sure it makes sense to talk of anything making a difference.

And if freewill doesn't exist control is always illusory, regardless of my beliefs.

Free will is a thing that people have asserted we possess, and, throughout time, accounts for this or that behavior.  We've learned that much that was attributed to free will, and even it's traditional "mechanism" are bunk.  Control is something a robot can do, and do even better with a control model.  Like our body model.  There are people who think that our consciousness is, itself, a control model.  Those people often do not believe in or assert any free will (quite the opposite).

Whether you me or the housecat have free will says nothing about control. Control is possible, and actual, either way.

(August 21, 2023 at 4:28 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(August 21, 2023 at 11:38 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: If things could not have ever been otherwise than what then I'm not sure it makes sense to talk of anything making a difference.

And if freewill doesn't exist control is always illusory, regardless of my beliefs.

Free will is a thing that people have asserted we possess, and, throughout time, accounts for this or that behavior.  We've learned that much that was attributed to free will, and even it's traditional "mechanism" are bunk.  Control is something a robot can do, and do even better with a control model.  Like our body model.  There are people who think that our consciousness is, itself, a control model.  Those people often do not believe in or assert any free will (quite the opposite).

Whether you me or the housecat have free will says nothing about control.  Control is possible, and actual, either way.

Can you maybe elaborate on that part?