(August 29, 2023 at 5:02 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 5:01 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (Bold mine)

What if someone’s religion informed them that it was best for government to feed the hungry, house the homeless, and care for the sick. Would you want them to vote that way?

Boru

Not on that basis, no.  I'd rather they only voted if such a view was informed by reason.

So if I as an atheist give a homeless person $100 with no strings attached, is that somehow better than if a religious person motivated by their faith does the same thing?

Boru

Yes. It's still a good thing to do, but the motivation matters.

If I give a 100 because I feel empathy, or I give a 100 because I'm filming it for my social.media matters, right?

Of course, the real issue is that religion never stops at the doing good. Its always comes.with strings attached, like supernaturalism, or creationism, or genital mutilation, or homophobia, or sexism, or whatever. There's no religion that just believes in giving and nothing else whatsoever.

(August 29, 2023 at 5:15 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: Yes.  It's still a good thing to do, but the motivation matters.

If I give a 100 because I feel empathy, or I give a 100 because I'm filming it for my social.media matters, right?

Of course, the real issue is that religion never stops at the doing good.  It’s always comes.with strings attached, like supernaturalism, or creationism, or genital mutilation, or homophobia, or sexism, or whatever. There's no religion that just believes in giving and nothing else whatsoever.

Will you concede that there are people (not religions) that will believe in giving without strings attached and with no expectation of return?

Boru

(August 29, 2023 at 4:40 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: How (if at all) does your atheism, theism, materialism, whatever, inform your political opinions?

It makes it a hell of a lot harder for me to sympathise with the Republican Party, that’s for sure.

(August 29, 2023 at 1:00 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 12:57 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It should be noted that those restrictions can and are also used to undermine democracy (Florida's education laws, for example).

That's why they need to be carefully formulated and not hijacked by religious people.  Ideally, religion should be weeded out of society altogether.  A long, slow process, no doubt.

I'm not a fan of using government to tell people what to feel, only to tell them how they ought to behave.

As for their being hijacked, in a democracy are those principles being hijacked if they enjoy popular support? I'd rather see a judicial branch that enforces the wall of separation we enjoy, rather than a legislature telling people what they can and cannot say. Once you allow government to decide what is and is not permissible speech, you've granted it a power that it will almost certainly abuse.

(August 29, 2023 at 2:04 pm)Nanny Wrote: My WV includes being an atheist, but that is not my entire WV.

Well-put and spot-on.

(August 29, 2023 at 5:02 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 5:01 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (Bold mine)

What if someone’s religion informed them that it was best for government to feed the hungry, house the homeless, and care for the sick. Would you want them to vote that way?

Boru

Not on that basis, no.  I'd rather they only voted if such a view was informed by reason.

So it's not about results, but rather about how they arrive at their decision? It's not so much about real-world results, but moral dudgeon? I volunteered at a religious food bank about 15 years ago. They handed out food, no questions asked, to anyone who showed up, with no religious requirements (attending church, avowing belief, and so on) at all.

Was I wrong? Were they wrong? Are your personal feelings really more important than helping the needy? I didn't feel my opinion was more important than their hunger.

(August 29, 2023 at 4:34 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I'd be a hypocrite only if I viewed all WVs the same.  But I don't.

For example, it isn't hypocritical to not want the views of pedophiles enacted in society.

As for freewill, I don't thinknit exists, so that applies equally to all.

I am totally ethnocentric, and openly so, in that I feel/think some things are more conducive to civilisational progress than others.  Science is better than superstition, law is better than anarchy, non-rape better than rape.  You may see things differently, that's expected.  I only choose to fight for what I hold to be true.  I expect others will do the same.  Its not hypocritical to think one's opinion the best.

No, but it is hypocritical for you to want other people who are doing the same thing you are doing, fighting for what they feel is best, to be treated differently than you want to be treated. You want to be allowed free reign for views influenced by your rationalism, but no such freedom for people acting out of religious belief. So what you've said here is just bullshit. You don't want to treat others the same way that you want to be treated.

(August 29, 2023 at 4:34 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I'd be a hypocrite only if I viewed all WVs the same.  But I don't.

So special pleading instead.

(August 29, 2023 at 5:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 5:15 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: Yes.  It's still a good thing to do, but the motivation matters.

If I give a 100 because I feel empathy, or I give a 100 because I'm filming it for my social.media matters, right?

Of course, the real issue is that religion never stops at the doing good.  It’s always comes.with strings attached, like supernaturalism, or creationism, or genital mutilation, or homophobia, or sexism, or whatever. There's no religion that just believes in giving and nothing else whatsoever.

Will you concede that there are people (not religions) that will believe in giving without strings attached and with no expectation of return?

Boru

People, sure.
Though even then all acts are ultimately self interested in part.