Hi @pocaracas, (does that notify you that someone mentioned you?)

Here's the thread for our discussion on theology and sociology. We'll see where it goes.

(November 24, 2023 at 11:17 am)pocaracas Wrote: Personally, I think that society somehow birthed religion, so the reduction of Theology to a subset of sociology kinda makes sense.

We have to be careful here. We now have three things: theology, religion and sociology.

’Father Harrison Ayre’ Wrote:Theology is rooted in two Greek words: Theos, meaning God, and logos, meaning reason. Theology is using our reason to study and know more about God and how he has shown himself to the world.

For example, we might think what could create all that we see? By definition it couldn’t be something that is part of what we see. It would have to be something outside. It would have to be different, too. Otherwise, we would ask how did it come to be? From there we would get to it being a spirit.

Now that’s a simplistic argument and I’m not debating it here. Just that it’s an example of how we would use reason to study and know more about God. Ancient Greeks (as I understand it. I wasn’t there) such as Aristotle practiced theology along these lines and got decently far.

’The Catholic Encyclopedia’ Wrote:Religion may thus be defined as the voluntary subjection of oneself to God, that is to the free, supernatural Being (or beings) on whom man is conscious of being dependent, of whose powerful help he feels the need, and in whom he recognizes the source of his perfection and happiness. It is a voluntary turning to God. In the last analysis it is an act of the will.

I would agree with you that (often) religion is birthed by society. It is a people — maybe sitting around a dung fire. Who knows? —responding to their understanding of the supreme being.

’American Sociological Association’ Wrote:Sociology is the study of social life, social change, and the social causes and consequences of human behavior. Sociologists investigate the structure of groups, organizations, and societies and how people interact within these contexts. Since all human behavior is social, the subject matter of sociology ranges from the intimate family to the hostile mob; from organized crime to religious traditions; from the divisions of race, gender and social class to the shared beliefs of a common culture. (21st Century Careers with an Undergraduate Degree in Sociology, 2014)

Thus, Sociology would include gathering data about religions to compare and contrast what different societies do. From that you could come up with common themes about a supreme being, and the means and purpose of worship. But that’s very different from Theology.

(November 24, 2023 at 11:17 am)pocaracas Wrote: If you think back to a time when mankind was living in small communities/tribes, with lots of oral tradition, it makes sense that some stories would evolve in the shared imaginarium into something akin to lore, or legend, where the distinction between reality and fantasy is very blurry, where unexplainable phenomena would be seen as paranormal, where death of loved ones would be wished to be a simple passing to another realm, the realm of that paranormal.

Sure, that does make some sense. You can see this happening in what we do have from early cultures, especially ones where their theology deduced gods that are extensions of humanity. The people build on what they know and they come up with Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Aztec, Mayan, and Hindu gods. The Mother Goddess (is that what she was called?) would be like that.

How they came up with those gods is still theology. Studying what they came up with is within sociology. I don’t see how theology could be a subset of sociology.

Pax et bonum

Still a whole lot of hooey with no credible evidence to support god's existence.

(November 24, 2023 at 4:46 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: Still a whole lot of hooey with no credible evidence to support god's existence.

Okay. Totally unrelated to the thread, but … okay.

When you are mentioning the study of god when there is zero evidence of the being's existence, it is quite related.

While I agree that theology isn’t exactly a sub-discipline of sociology, the two do appear inextricably linked: theology is the study of religious beliefs and the possible justifications for them, and the impact of religious belief on society, for good or ill, can’t be discounted.

Boru

(November 24, 2023 at 5:11 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: While I agree that theology isn’t exactly a sub-discipline of sociology, the two do appear inextricably linked: theology is the study of religious beliefs and the possible justifications for them, and the impact of religious belief on society, for good or ill, can’t be discounted.

Boru

Hi Boru,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

Sure, I would agree they are linked. “inextricably” seems a bit much. For example, Sociology is much, much more than just religious beliefs. The object of study is, as I understand it, all of human behavior. And the focus of Theology can best be understood as the act of thinking deeply about God/gods. Thus, the object of study is God and his revelation. It too is much more than just the study of religious beliefs. In fact, Religious Studies would be the term that, I think, would be more appropriate to the way y’all are using Theology.

Of course, you may be able to find departments who equate Theology with Religious Studies or put it under Sociology. Nowadays, you can find just about anything.

And I get that for someone who doesn’t think God/gods exist, then Theology likely devolves into social behavior.

In general, I think we are in agreement here, just different in magnitude. I think the Venn diagram of Theology and Sociology would have a small intersection. I take it that you all would make it much larger.

(November 24, 2023 at 7:04 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote:

(November 24, 2023 at 5:11 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: While I agree that theology isn’t exactly a sub-discipline of sociology, the two do appear inextricably linked: theology is the study of religious beliefs and the possible justifications for them, and the impact of religious belief on society, for good or ill, can’t be discounted.

Boru

Hi Boru,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

Sure, I would agree they are linked. “inextricably” seems a bit much. For example, Sociology is much, much more than just religious beliefs. The object of study is, as I understand it, all of human behavior. And the focus of Theology can best be understood as the act of thinking deeply about God/gods. Thus, the object of study is God and his revelation. It too is much more than just the study of religious beliefs. In fact, Religious Studies would be the term that, I think, would be more appropriate to the way y’all are using Theology.

Of course, you may be able to find departments who equate Theology with Religious Studies or put it under Sociology. Nowadays, you can find just about anything.

And I get that for someone who doesn’t think God/gods exist, then Theology likely devolves into social behavior.

In general, I think we are in agreement here, just different in magnitude. I think the Venn diagram of Theology and Sociology would have a small intersection. I take it that you all would make it much larger.

Of course sociology is much more than religious beliefs - I don’t think anyone can sensibly dispute that. But it seems difficult (if not impossible) to study a society (sociology) without taking religion into account. To do so, it’s not only needful to study what people believe (religion), but why they believe it (theology).

I’m not saying that theology is the most important part of sociology, or even a major part. But I do think it’s a vital part - attempting to understand a society without considering why it believes what it believes does a disservice to both.

Boru

Oh, goody, another lecturer.

(November 24, 2023 at 4:42 pm)SimpleCaveman Wrote: Hi @pocaracas, (does that notify you that someone mentioned you?)

Here's the thread for our discussion on theology and sociology. We'll see where it goes.

(November 24, 2023 at 11:17 am)pocaracas Wrote: Personally, I think that society somehow birthed religion, so the reduction of Theology to a subset of sociology kinda makes sense.

We have to be careful here. We now have three things: theology, religion and sociology.

’Father Harrison Ayre’ Wrote:Theology is rooted in two Greek words: Theos, meaning God, and logos, meaning reason. Theology is using our reason to study and know more about God and how he has shown himself to the world.

For example, we might think what could create all that we see? By definition it couldn’t be something that is part of what we see. It would have to be something outside. It would have to be different, too. Otherwise, we would ask how did it come to be? From there we would get to it being a spirit.

Now that’s a simplistic argument and I’m not debating it here. Just that it’s an example of how we would use reason to study and know more about God. Ancient Greeks (as I understand it. I wasn’t there) such as Aristotle practiced theology along these lines and got decently far.

’The Catholic Encyclopedia’ Wrote:Religion may thus be defined as the voluntary subjection of oneself to God, that is to the free, supernatural Being (or beings) on whom man is conscious of being dependent, of whose powerful help he feels the need, and in whom he recognizes the source of his perfection and happiness. It is a voluntary turning to God. In the last analysis it is an act of the will.

I would agree with you that (often) religion is birthed by society. It is a people — maybe sitting around a dung fire. Who knows? —responding to their understanding of the supreme being.

’American Sociological Association’ Wrote:Sociology is the study of social life, social change, and the social causes and consequences of human behavior. Sociologists investigate the structure of groups, organizations, and societies and how people interact within these contexts. Since all human behavior is social, the subject matter of sociology ranges from the intimate family to the hostile mob; from organized crime to religious traditions; from the divisions of race, gender and social class to the shared beliefs of a common culture. (21st Century Careers with an Undergraduate Degree in Sociology, 2014)

Thus, Sociology would include gathering data about religions to compare and contrast what different societies do. From that you could come up with common themes about a supreme being, and the means and purpose of worship. But that’s very different from Theology.

(November 24, 2023 at 11:17 am)pocaracas Wrote: If you think back to a time when mankind was living in small communities/tribes, with lots of oral tradition, it makes sense that some stories would evolve in the shared imaginarium into something akin to lore, or legend, where the distinction between reality and fantasy is very blurry, where unexplainable phenomena would be seen as paranormal, where death of loved ones would be wished to be a simple passing to another realm, the realm of that paranormal.

Sure, that does make some sense. You can see this happening in what we do have from early cultures, especially ones where their theology deduced gods that are extensions of humanity. The people build on what they know and they come up with Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Aztec, Mayan, and Hindu gods. The Mother Goddess (is that what she was called?) would be like that.

How they came up with those gods is still theology. Studying what they came up with is within sociology. I don’t see how theology could be a subset of sociology.

Pax et bonum

(November 24, 2023 at 7:32 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Of course sociology is much more than religious beliefs - I don’t think anyone can sensibly dispute that. But it seems difficult (if not impossible) to study a society (sociology) without taking religion into account. To do so, it’s not only needful to study what people believe (religion), but why they believe it (theology).

I’m not saying that theology is the most important part of sociology, or even a major part. But I do think it’s a vital part - attempting to understand a society without considering why it believes what it believes does a disservice to both.

Yep. Not disagreeing, Boru. Seems like the question left is how much of Theology is “why they believe”. Do you think that “why they believe” is all of Theology or a portion? I would say it's a small part of Theology.