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This is an issue that is very well known by religious dogma oriented people.
The brain of a child is highly flexible in comparison to ours. Around 700 thousand Ukrainian children are said to have been “evacuated” by Russia from the occupied zones of Ukraine.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abdu...ainian_War )
I’ve heard that most of these kids are simply being re-educated. Meaning that their Ukrainian identity is gradually being erased and they are made into Russian kids.
In the same manner, all “religious” people around the world are very aware that they have to teach the truth about God to their children. They also know very well that they need to teach them by showing them. In fact, we all owe a lot to our parents and other adults around us while shaping our personality and that is perfectly true. And this is why more conservative people (in my time) did not like people with long hair, people having tattoo’s or piercings, people who listen to the wrong kind of music etc. People with different orientations are perceived as people who set bad example for kids. It’s as simple as that
Still, that is not (by definition) education. The problem with that is that there are things that you know for sure, so you have to teach these things to your kids. But think of all the mythology that is being placed into the brains of little kids. Who knows if any of these is true? – No one knows it. And that’s indoctrination. That’s how you get people to be completely irrational. Like people who don’t recognize the necessity of a medical abortion in some cases or those who believe that they must starve in a given month of the year because they believe they will face physical pain in the afterlife if they don’t.
Than what is education? – True education is not the filling of the brain with knowledge because the human brain is an empty shell that needs to be filled with all sorts of things. That doctrine is also outdated. So this is my view but my understanding is that school is above all a place where you socialize and have some fun in your path to becoming an adult individual. Then it’s a place in which you learn some of the basics about the world you have been born into. Finally, it’s a place that allows you to think like an adult. At the age of 16-18, someone has to be able to think critically, to doubt any type of information that is being fed to him-her. To have an approach toward the issues of life that is adult-like. Meaning that you have an understanding about of all the pros and cons of any issue instead of any type of a dogmatic approach that proposes only one answer to any type of question.
And Sadhguru says that “I don’t know” is a tremendous possibility. So instead of pretending to know anything, it is always safer to build phrases like “I don’t know what that is, but I believe it is possible for it to be this or that etc.” That’s the basic philosophical approach and I think everybody needs to learn that.
Finally, this is the main requirement for any spiritual approach as well. My observation is that people who have been strongly indoctrinated are mostly less capable of learning spiritual realities in the way I have been learning them during the last 20 years. My approach has always been “What if none of this is true?” So it has been a process of emptying my assumptions rather than making new assumptions. That’s how I would define it.
So extreme dogmatism is an element that prevent the rational / science based understanding of the universe. It is also something that will slow us down if we decide to walk on a spiritual path of any sort.
So the main idea is that the brain is a muscle and education is here to make this work in the best possible way and that spiritual quests should happen after that or in a way that is separate from that, if we want that spiritual quest to have any chance of success actually.
You think that the indoctrinated are less capable of learning "spiritual realities" than you....and in this hypothetical I presume that you believe that you haven't been indoctrinated to believe in these "spiritual realities" in the first place?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
January 19, 2024 at 1:31 pm (This post was last modified: January 19, 2024 at 1:32 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(January 19, 2024 at 9:56 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: This is an issue that is very well known by religious dogma oriented people.
The brain of a child is highly flexible in comparison to ours. Around 700 thousand Ukrainian children are said to have been “evacuated” by Russia from the occupied zones of Ukraine.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abdu...ainian_War )
I’ve heard that most of these kids are simply being re-educated. Meaning that their Ukrainian identity is gradually being erased and they are made into Russian kids.
In the same manner, all “religious” people around the world are very aware that they have to teach the truth about God to their children. They also know very well that they need to teach them by showing them. In fact, we all owe a lot to our parents and other adults around us while shaping our personality and that is perfectly true. And this is why more conservative people (in my time) did not like people with long hair, people having tattoo’s or piercings, people who listen to the wrong kind of music etc. People with different orientations are perceived as people who set bad example for kids. It’s as simple as that
Still, that is not (by definition) education. The problem with that is that there are things that you know for sure, so you have to teach these things to your kids. But think of all the mythology that is being placed into the brains of little kids. Who knows if any of these is true? – No one knows it. And that’s indoctrination. That’s how you get people to be completely irrational. Like people who don’t recognize the necessity of a medical abortion in some cases or those who believe that they must starve in a given month of the year because they believe they will face physical pain in the afterlife if they don’t.
Than what is education? – True education is not the filling of the brain with knowledge because the human brain is an empty shell that needs to be filled with all sorts of things. That doctrine is also outdated. So this is my view but my understanding is that school is above all a place where you socialize and have some fun in your path to becoming an adult individual. Then it’s a place in which you learn some of the basics about the world you have been born into. Finally, it’s a place that allows you to think like an adult. At the age of 16-18, someone has to be able to think critically, to doubt any type of information that is being fed to him-her. To have an approach toward the issues of life that is adult-like. Meaning that you have an understanding about of all the pros and cons of any issue instead of any type of a dogmatic approach that proposes only one answer to any type of question.
And Sadhguru says that “I don’t know” is a tremendous possibility. So instead of pretending to know anything, it is always safer to build phrases like “I don’t know what that is, but I believe it is possible for it to be this or that etc.” That’s the basic philosophical approach and I think everybody needs to learn that.
Finally, this is the main requirement for any spiritual approach as well. My observation is that people who have been strongly indoctrinated are mostly less capable of learning spiritual realities in the way I have been learning them during the last 20 years. My approach has always been “What if none of this is true?” So it has been a process of emptying my assumptions rather than making new assumptions. That’s how I would define it.
So extreme dogmatism is an element that prevent the rational / science based understanding of the universe. It is also something that will slow us down if we decide to walk on a spiritual path of any sort.
So the main idea is that the brain is a muscle and education is here to make this work in the best possible way and that spiritual quests should happen after that or in a way that is separate from that, if we want that spiritual quest to have any chance of success actually.
What method would one use to engage in a “spiritual quest”, and how do we measure its success?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
I detest that phrase "spirit quest". I can deal with spiritual thinking, but "spirit quest" just sounds so goddamned New Agey. The word "quest" also implies that there's a finishing point to it.
Education opens doors; indoctrination slams them shut
"For the only way to eternal glory is a life lived in service of our Lord, FSM; Verily it is FSM who is the perfect being the name higher than all names, king of all kings and will bestow upon us all, one day, The great reclaiming" -The Prophet Boiardi-
January 19, 2024 at 8:52 pm (This post was last modified: January 19, 2024 at 9:10 pm by Belacqua.)
(January 19, 2024 at 9:56 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: This is an issue that is very well known by religious dogma oriented people.
The brain of a child is highly flexible in comparison to ours. Around 700 thousand Ukrainian children are said to have been “evacuated” by Russia from the occupied zones of Ukraine.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abdu...ainian_War )
I’ve heard that most of these kids are simply being re-educated. Meaning that their Ukrainian identity is gradually being erased and they are made into Russian kids.
In the same manner, all “religious” people around the world are very aware that they have to teach the truth about God to their children. They also know very well that they need to teach them by showing them. In fact, we all owe a lot to our parents and other adults around us while shaping our personality and that is perfectly true. And this is why more conservative people (in my time) did not like people with long hair, people having tattoo’s or piercings, people who listen to the wrong kind of music etc. People with different orientations are perceived as people who set bad example for kids. It’s as simple as that
Still, that is not (by definition) education. The problem with that is that there are things that you know for sure, so you have to teach these things to your kids. But think of all the mythology that is being placed into the brains of little kids. Who knows if any of these is true? – No one knows it. And that’s indoctrination. That’s how you get people to be completely irrational. Like people who don’t recognize the necessity of a medical abortion in some cases or those who believe that they must starve in a given month of the year because they believe they will face physical pain in the afterlife if they don’t.
Than what is education? – True education is not the filling of the brain with knowledge because the human brain is an empty shell that needs to be filled with all sorts of things. That doctrine is also outdated. So this is my view but my understanding is that school is above all a place where you socialize and have some fun in your path to becoming an adult individual. Then it’s a place in which you learn some of the basics about the world you have been born into. Finally, it’s a place that allows you to think like an adult. At the age of 16-18, someone has to be able to think critically, to doubt any type of information that is being fed to him-her. To have an approach toward the issues of life that is adult-like. Meaning that you have an understanding about of all the pros and cons of any issue instead of any type of a dogmatic approach that proposes only one answer to any type of question.
And Sadhguru says that “I don’t know” is a tremendous possibility. So instead of pretending to know anything, it is always safer to build phrases like “I don’t know what that is, but I believe it is possible for it to be this or that etc.” That’s the basic philosophical approach and I think everybody needs to learn that.
Finally, this is the main requirement for any spiritual approach as well. My observation is that people who have been strongly indoctrinated are mostly less capable of learning spiritual realities in the way I have been learning them during the last 20 years. My approach has always been “What if none of this is true?” So it has been a process of emptying my assumptions rather than making new assumptions. That’s how I would define it.
So extreme dogmatism is an element that prevent the rational / science based understanding of the universe. It is also something that will slow us down if we decide to walk on a spiritual path of any sort.
So the main idea is that the brain is a muscle and education is here to make this work in the best possible way and that spiritual quests should happen after that or in a way that is separate from that, if we want that spiritual quest to have any chance of success actually.
One thing we have to be careful about: the word "education" sounds positive, and the word "indoctrination" sounds negative. This makes it very easy to beg the question. Education is when they teach kids the things we approve of, and indoctrination is when they teach kids the things we don't approve of. People who agree with me have been educated, while people who disagree with me have been indoctrinated.
It seems to me that a (never-ending) process of education requires that we constantly question our own beliefs, to guard against our own indoctrination. We have to be able to understand why reasonable people may reasonably disagree with us. If we just say "they've been indoctrinated, they can't think straight," it is letting ourselves off the hook.
So for example Nudger assumes that your belief in spiritual realities is the result of indoctrination. But reasonable people may conclude that he has been indoctrinated to reject spiritual realities.
You assume that education will result in a "rational/science based understanding of the universe." But are you sure this assumption is not the result of your own indoctrination?
In my opinion, education will first be aimed at learning facts and systems. It will also include the tools to analyze these facts and systems, including our own. There are all kinds of dogmatic beliefs that aren't religious, and which are taken unthinkingly to be true by many many people.
I'm not completely sure what you mean by "spiritual realities," but I can see how something along those lines would be an extension of education, rather than a separate thing. To me, spirituality is largely a sense of our infinite interconnectedness with the world, resulting in less pride and less assurance of our own specialness.
And I think that an education which is ONLY limited to facts and systems lacks a larger goal, which a good education should point toward. If our education doesn't result in us becoming a better person, I don't see any point in memorizing facts, or adhering to particular approved-of world views. If we are not kinder and more compassionate due to education, I don't really see the point. If we don't learn to avoid causing unnecessary pain, then our education has failed. Perhaps those last things are a part of spirituality; I'm not sure.
(January 19, 2024 at 9:56 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: This is an issue that is very well known by religious dogma oriented people.
The brain of a child is highly flexible in comparison to ours. Around 700 thousand Ukrainian children are said to have been “evacuated” by Russia from the occupied zones of Ukraine.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abdu...ainian_War )
I’ve heard that most of these kids are simply being re-educated. Meaning that their Ukrainian identity is gradually being erased and they are made into Russian kids.
In the same manner, all “religious” people around the world are very aware that they have to teach the truth about God to their children. They also know very well that they need to teach them by showing them. In fact, we all owe a lot to our parents and other adults around us while shaping our personality and that is perfectly true. And this is why more conservative people (in my time) did not like people with long hair, people having tattoo’s or piercings, people who listen to the wrong kind of music etc. People with different orientations are perceived as people who set bad example for kids. It’s as simple as that
Still, that is not (by definition) education. The problem with that is that there are things that you know for sure, so you have to teach these things to your kids. But think of all the mythology that is being placed into the brains of little kids. Who knows if any of these is true? – No one knows it. And that’s indoctrination. That’s how you get people to be completely irrational. Like people who don’t recognize the necessity of a medical abortion in some cases or those who believe that they must starve in a given month of the year because they believe they will face physical pain in the afterlife if they don’t.
Than what is education? – True education is not the filling of the brain with knowledge because the human brain is an empty shell that needs to be filled with all sorts of things. That doctrine is also outdated. So this is my view but my understanding is that school is above all a place where you socialize and have some fun in your path to becoming an adult individual. Then it’s a place in which you learn some of the basics about the world you have been born into. Finally, it’s a place that allows you to think like an adult. At the age of 16-18, someone has to be able to think critically, to doubt any type of information that is being fed to him-her. To have an approach toward the issues of life that is adult-like. Meaning that you have an understanding about of all the pros and cons of any issue instead of any type of a dogmatic approach that proposes only one answer to any type of question.
And Sadhguru says that “I don’t know” is a tremendous possibility. So instead of pretending to know anything, it is always safer to build phrases like “I don’t know what that is, but I believe it is possible for it to be this or that etc.” That’s the basic philosophical approach and I think everybody needs to learn that.
Finally, this is the main requirement for any spiritual approach as well. My observation is that people who have been strongly indoctrinated are mostly less capable of learning spiritual realities in the way I have been learning them during the last 20 years. My approach has always been “What if none of this is true?” So it has been a process of emptying my assumptions rather than making new assumptions. That’s how I would define it.
So extreme dogmatism is an element that prevent the rational / science based understanding of the universe. It is also something that will slow us down if we decide to walk on a spiritual path of any sort.
So the main idea is that the brain is a muscle and education is here to make this work in the best possible way and that spiritual quests should happen after that or in a way that is separate from that, if we want that spiritual quest to have any chance of success actually.
One thing we have to be careful about: the word "education" sounds positive, and the word "indoctrination" sounds negative. This makes it very easy to beg the question. Education is when they teach kids the things we approve of, and indoctrination is when they teach kids the things we don't approve of. People who agree with me have been educated, while people who disagree with me have been indoctrinated.
It seems to me that a (never-ending) process of education requires that we constantly question our own beliefs, to guard against our own indoctrination. We have to be able to understand why reasonable people may reasonably disagree with us. If we just say "they've been indoctrinated, they can't think straight," it is letting ourselves off the hook.
So for example Nudger assumes that your belief in spiritual realities are the result of indoctrination. But reasonable people may conclude that he has been indoctrinated to reject spiritual realities.
You assume that education will result in a "rational/science based understanding of the universe." But are you sure this assumption is not the result of your own indoctrination?
In my opinion, education will first be aimed at learning facts and systems. It will also include the tools to analyze these facts and systems, including our own. There are all kinds of dogmatic beliefs that aren't religious, and which are taken unthinkingly to be true by many many people.
I'm not completely sure what you mean by "spiritual realities," but I can see how something along those lines would be an extension of education, rather than a separate thing. To me, spirituality is largely a sense of our infinite interconnectedness with the world, resulting in less pride and less assurance of our own specialness.
And I think that an education which is ONLY limited to facts and systems lacks a larger goal, which a good education should point toward. If our education doesn't result in us becoming a better person, I don't see any point in memorizing facts, or adhering to particular approved-of world views. If we are not kinder and more compassionate due to education, I don't really see the point. If we don't learn to avoid causing unnecessary pain, then our education has failed. Perhaps those last things are a part of spirituality; I'm not sure.
I know you won't read this but do you really think that education...in the going to school sense...should teach people to be good people? What class would that be? And who decides that makes a good person? You?
January 19, 2024 at 9:35 pm (This post was last modified: January 19, 2024 at 9:37 pm by Ahriman.)
(January 19, 2024 at 8:52 pm)Belacqua Wrote: And I think that an education which is ONLY limited to facts and systems lacks a larger goal, which a good education should point toward. If our education doesn't result in us becoming a better person, I don't see any point in memorizing facts, or adhering to particular approved-of world views. If we are not kinder and more compassionate due to education, I don't really see the point. If we don't learn to avoid causing unnecessary pain, then our education has failed. Perhaps those last things are a part of spirituality; I'm not sure.
Why would education teach people to be more kind and compassionate? And what's wrong with pain?
January 19, 2024 at 9:49 pm (This post was last modified: January 19, 2024 at 10:00 pm by Belacqua.)
(January 19, 2024 at 9:35 pm)Ahriman Wrote:
(January 19, 2024 at 8:52 pm)Belacqua Wrote: And I think that an education which is ONLY limited to facts and systems lacks a larger goal, which a good education should point toward. If our education doesn't result in us becoming a better person, I don't see any point in memorizing facts, or adhering to particular approved-of world views. If we are not kinder and more compassionate due to education, I don't really see the point. If we don't learn to avoid causing unnecessary pain, then our education has failed. Perhaps those last things are a part of spirituality; I'm not sure.
Why would education teach people to be more kind and compassionate? And what's wrong with pain?
Yes, these are very good questions. Exactly the kind of thing that reveals my own assumptions.
It's clear that a lot of people disagree with me -- they think that kindness and compassion are not intrinsically good things. A lot of people are willing to switch them on and off, depending on circumstances.
I really ought to ponder it more, but as a first reaction, I'd just say that creation and discovery, rather than hate, seem to me like intrinsic goods. When we give up kindness and compassion we are likely to instigate vicious circles of attacks which end up taking up our energies and benefiting no one.
It's possible to challenge and debate in a spirit of kindness, and I think that in the long run the effects are more positive if we do it this way.
As for pain, I'd say that's intrinsically a bad thing, which we always want to avoid. It is good insofar as it's a warning sign that something is going wrong. But the ability to endure it when necessary is also a sign of strength.
Remember that in Greek mythology there is a good Eris and a bad Eris -- the goddess of conflict. How we go about this conflict is important. Even if there's no chance of improving the other person's thinking, it is important to me that we engage in a way which shows our own best qualities.
Do you have any arguments as to why it's better not to be kind?
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