(April 22, 2024 at 2:05 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: I do not disagree with any of this. 

If you like reading about the Rover Perseverance for instance. I remember how exited I was when I was reading (/hearing /seeing) about the rover pathfinder back in the 90’s. It takes about 8 minute for those robots to get whatever radio command signal is issued from earth. And it’s mainly based on a Soviet Lunar Rover Lunokhood that goes back to the 70’s. And still, they are now working with Elon Musk-like companies to send a robot-rocket to Mars, collect the specimens that are currently being collected by Perseverance, Put it on Martian orbit, ship it back to earth and then analyze it, to see if by any chance life has started on Mars a few billion years ago, at the same time as Earth.
 
That alone is such a love story. As you put it, it’s everything mysticism isn’t. But as I said, true mysticism usually acknowledges this “reality” about science. When Sadhguru was asked if it was karma (destiny) that a man was currently on a wheelchair, he said “No, the reason for that is probably that he didn’t get a polio vaccine when he was a child”. The word “Karma” actually means “action”. By the way Sadh guru has a brain surgery last month or so. He didn’t try to heal it through bio energies and/or prayer for instance.
 
   But don’t get me wrong, The Church of Religious science (for instance) says that “This world is not real, only God is real, so what matters is what you believe in, not the physical medicine”. There was a religious group in the US who simply refuse to take medicine and try to heal through prayer. This is not it. But we sort of believe in things like playing therapeutic music to the sick, sending Reiki energy to the sick, praying on behalf of the sick, praying together with the sick or making visualizations about the sick can and does contribute to their healing. There was even a proposition, before the invasion of Iraq by George W. Bush, to send advanced meditators to the Middle East, to try to raise the energy level of this geography (and therefore promote peace in the region).
 
   Not everyone agrees with this type of belief in our current technology-oriented civilization. But tell me: What did the US achieve militarily in the Middle-East through physical intervention?
 
- So I believe that Egyptians were like quite advanced in these things. And there are parallels to that at least in Ancient India. The Vedas are also conveying some very intriguing stories (like the stories of Homer) about Kings and Rulers who lived in a world in which everything we see as “supernatural” was actual reality. Like the story of King Arthur for Instance.
 
All of this is to say that the Egyptians were not just some farmer civilization on the shore of the Nile. In my view, they knew about everything we now see as “Alternative medicine” and more. They had no colonoscopy but they could magnetize you to try to understand your ailment. Like the doctors of Ancient Greece, with the only difference that these guys were real.
 
Besides, they believed in Maat. Which is the principle of justice. The Pharaoh’s main purpose was to make the spirit of Maat rule over the entire country.
 
So all those ruins and the Sphinx for instance are not able to talk. So I am sort of trying to talk for them and give them a voice.
 
I mean none of these people had thoughts like “Oh we are so pathetically primitive today, why don’t we kill ourselves and reincarnate in a few millennia”. Each and every one of them thought that they were the most advanced state of mankind (which they were in that time), and considered themselves quite lucky of being whoever they were back in those days.
 
So back to our subject: The challenges we are facing now are huge. Mr Michio Kaku was one enumerating the powers humanity had acquired (citing an old Japanese deity for each one of them). Well, it doesn’t mean anything if we have all those powers and more if we go extinct in few decades does it?
 
My proposal is that maybe spirituality is also trying to teach of something. What if Sadhguru is right and we are like this infant who is sitting on the floor with a very sharp knife in its hand?
 
I think there are many elements about us that is pointing out to the fact that yes, indeed, this might be the case and that we might be at a point in which we have to take this evolutionary step.
 
And as I said: You don’t need to adhere to any religious group or dogma to do that. In fact, philosophy (ordinary philosophy) and some amount of intellectualism is able to get you there too. I prefer spirituality, because I see it as letting go of your childhood bicycle and stepping into a real automobile.
 
The universality of this is that God being a phenomenon present in each and every one of us, anybody can take this leap if he or she desires to do so. And in fact, the energies of our times are quite supportive of that too.
 
So with this confidence in me I see no problem in calling out the entirely dogmatic false beliefs that are based on fake spirituality for what they are. My philosophy teacher was referring to this as “Human stupidity”.
 
Example: Last day I saw this guy who was trying to feed stray dogs with some pieces of chicken he had purchased in some place. I told him in a rather friendly manner they he could be infected with salmonella by handling raw meat in that way and the reason why the stray dog was not eating his precious gifts was that it was bad for the dog, That he had to cook the meat first, separate the bones so that the broken bones would not cause injuries in the animal’s digestive system.
 
- He simply ignored me. (He was in this belief system in which he was simply being pious by giving food to those poor beings and I was too much of a scientific minded person to understand the good he was trying to do there). I related this story for anyone is stereotyping Texans: Please come and see human behavior happening in this region first before judging anyone on that.
 
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In my view: Religion and spirituality has been this safe haven for human stupidity. Yet in today’s world, and this is going to increase, it’s anything but that. My feeling is a feeling of someone who is taking this inner journey and who is getting results on a personal and even social level and this is like a good thing in my life and I do have the intention to pursue this even further.
 
And No: “The Dao that is spoken of is not the true Dao”. So not everyone who is claiming to be on a spiritual path is truly on a spiritual path.
 
Example: I don’t believe in hell. But the guy I mentioned above, I really hope there is hell and that he burns in it for what he did (and is probably still doing as we speak).

"True" mysticism, as you've consistently employed it, has only ever been a weasel word for all of the ways that -you- think mysticism as practiced is false.   My guy...I think you're probably an atheist dealing with that last little step........shhhh, don't tell "allah".

Sure, sure, you're dissatisfied with what a bunch of witchdoctors told you was "atheist ideology" - but those guys are shameless liars, as you know. I'm not a huge fan of the bullshit they rail against either.... You let this out every now and again, when you insist that atheists have it more right than your islamist fellow travelers. Now, that may not be true. Maybe there really is some tribal arab god out there pouring lead up peoples assholes....but you don't think so. You, according to you, think we have it more right than magic book.

Good for you...or not...depending on the above. The whole bit would be resolved easily for you, had you not clearly been indoctrinated into islamism by whomever - because what you call "spirituality" we call "humanism" - no ghosts need apply.

As for that last bit. Just stop. Just because you don't like what other people describe as their spiritual, doesn't mean that they aren't on a spiritual path. You're the one that's wrong here, demonstrably and self evidently wrong - with you...yourself...as an example...even in the limited context of your own traditions. When I generously apply the islamist batshit translator my life's experiences have granted me I see that you first words in that post are essentially evergreen. That you and I probably agree on every bit of meaningful content. The only difference is that I'm far past the point were I believe that the superstitions I was raised with are the answer, or any answer...to the problems those things have never resolved.

So go. Go pray. Try to spirit yourself a fucking solution...and when you inevitably realize that this doesn't work..both me and the problems in question will still be here, and all you'll have done is waste time you could have spent trying (and likely failing) to solve them by credible means. Multiply that by thousands of years and you'll have the whole story of abrahamism.... or.... at least, the whole story worth telling.

@Leonardo17

Quote:I’m not a believer in time-travel. In fact let us leave this analogy aside. I would not mind living a different lifestyle. I wouldn’t be that unhappy in a more communal / pastoral type of living if I could afford it. All I am saying is that this urbanized / industrialized / technological / liberal-economy life is not always making that much sense to me. All I am saying is I would not miss it that much if I lived in ancient Athens for instance.

I rather think what you mean is that you wouldn't miss much if you lived in the fantasy you have of ancient Athens.

Boru

(April 22, 2024 at 2:05 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: But don’t get me wrong, The Church of Religious science (for instance) says that “This world is not real, only God is real, so what matters is what you believe in, not the physical medicine”. There was a religious group in the US who simply refuse to take medicine and try to heal through prayer. This is not it. But we sort of believe in things like playing therapeutic music to the sick, sending Reiki energy to the sick, praying on behalf of the sick, praying together with the sick or making visualizations about the sick can and does contribute to their healing. There was even a proposition, before the invasion of Iraq by George W. Bush, to send advanced meditators to the Middle East, to try to raise the energy level of this geography (and therefore promote peace in the region).

This idea that there are gods and aliens and that you can ask them for help and they will freely give it to you because they are so kind and nice is an ancient idea.

You can setup experiments where you can pray for people and you can do statistical analysis and you’ll find out prayer doesn’t work.
Such things has already been done.

I have done it as well using a coin toss. Many coin tosses. You get nearly 50% heads and nearly 50% tails.
It doesn’t matter which alien you pray to.

Churches aren’t interested in doing an analysis. They don’t want to know if their prayer works. Finding out the truth, discovering is not their goal. They want to continue to live in their world of make believe.
They want to believe that prayer works.

It is funny that they pray to get cured or they pray to get a job and things of a statistical nature.
Why don’t they pray for knowledge? It would be crystal clear that the favorite alien or your favorite god is not going to give you information.

(April 22, 2024 at 2:05 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: not the physical medicine

Yes, they have a lot of difficulty in accepting that they are made of atoms. A lot of theists have a problem with that.

Listening to music, doing something that makes you feel good probably has an effect on your health. It reduces stress levels. It is not good to be in constant stress.

(April 24, 2024 at 12:05 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Do you know the meaning of 110 C Fahrenheit in a tropical climate?

Yes, I grew up in a swamp in the se us.  
 

Quote:Many people in these countries are too poor to afford AC. Many of them are not even going to survive this.
 
I am switching the subject but, where is our science and technology? In many ways, we are more powerful than the Gods of most mythologies. But this isn’t really Covid-19, AIDS or even Cancer. Such a dramatic shift of temperatures has not happened on this planet except when we were hit by the asteroid Chicxulub 66 million years ago.

Where is sci and tech?  You mean, other than in the ac you acknowledge, or shade structures, or houses, or clothes, or the logistics to do all of that and the equipment to move it - up to and including affected populations in the worst case scenarios..along with any and every potential solution to those problems in the pipe, currently going, or yet to be dreamt up.  Other than everywhere, the sci and tech is apparently nowhere.

Now....... "spirit" up a single solution to it getting hot outside?
 

Quote:But I am ok with your approach too. Being critical-minded is not a bad thing with all the BS people are trying to sell us out there.
 
My decision is more like “I decide to trust” some sources that are available to me. And advanced meditators don’t even do that. They are invited to “directly experience” the higher levels of consciousness. That’s what they do in Yoga for instance.
 
My position as a deist is that there is value in most of the “Great Teachings” of this world. I believe that your experience with Abrahamic Religion has been rather superficial.

Perhaps you believe that because it's convenient, rather than accurate.
 

Quote:I’ve told you many times, my approach is not this many prayers a day, staying hungry at this time of the calendar, believing in this or that mythology as it has been related to me by this guy or that guy. Then spread the word to everyone because everyone else is too dumb to get it the way I do.

...and yet, look at your comment directly above.  
 

Quote:I think I have some level of understanding on these issues. So I am taking the liberty of sharing my own personal ideas on some of the main issues of this world.
 
Ex: 1944 this week was when French women were granted with the right to vote (That happened in the month of April 1930 in Turkey). This year in the month of March was when they included abortion rights into the French constitutions. The reason why they did that was to avoid a Poland of US like scenario at any time in their country.
 
So I am like carrying this debate to the next level here.
 
When I was a kid there was this kid from a more traditional family system. We would openly ask him “Why do you believe in God, you know there are no Gods” and he was like “You know I prayed once and it happened”…
 
This is not the issue here. I am a believer in change. I think there can be ways of believing that should not provoke more scientific-minded people that much.
 
I am not saying that I found the Ultimate Truth. What I am saying is more like “Even with all that science, do we even know what’s in the emptiness around us?”
And Yes, I am critical of the pure technology-minded approach to life in general: Is there anyone here who would say no to breath clean air? To swim in lakes that were entirely unpolluted, to eat food that was grown without any harmful chemicals? To drink water that is free of micro plastics?

-and the solutions to each of these problems are scientific and technical.  
 

Quote:And this is not a “So is the Truth” type of argument. It’s more like “Yes, but what about that thing? What do you think about that thing?”
 
So this should be the general mood of our debate. Thanks

Except there doesn't seem to be any "and also".  How do any of the magic books - any of them - these great works that hold important stuff that you think is relevant to these issues.......propose that we filter our water, our air, or fertilize our crops?

If your proposal resolves to "we should become luddites like the gods intended" then this is not a solution to those issues as they existed and will persist whether we have or employ technology or not, it's a declaration of surrender. The "spirituality" of just quitting....and from where I sit, even that doesn't require any spirits, or any great knowledge in our historic superstitions. Just the usual misquided outlook promoted as a means to grasp social authority in god-bothering cultures.

I get that this doesn't look that way from your end, I really do. From your end all you're trying to do is salvage some parts of some treasured thing you came up with but not longer genuinely believe. The practical effect, though, what that urge leads you to do, is the same misappropriative shit the superstitious have always been engaged in. Attempting to claim for your "spirituality" whatever your peers might find valuable in a given place at a given time...insisting all the while that these obvious and productive ideas which you wish to make concordant are simultaneously innadequite to the task at hand as if that would even matter when your own are no solution to any of them whatsoever.

Reiki is the magic hands theory of medicine. It is not only valueless as medicine, it is detrimental to the health of people who need actual medicine.

I guess it's fine for creepers who like the idea of being no-touch touched....but that's what strippers are for...sooooo......

Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any sillier.

Pages and pages of walls o' useless text.

Imma burn some sage. This place needs a cleansing.