On a recent thread I outlined a metaethical position called moral error theory. That thread is splitting in a few directions at the moment (deliberately so) as I want to get general thoughts on a range of topics to guide my further learning. But I still want to get feedback specifically on the issue of morality in a godless universe, and particularly from folk who believe that normal moral speech is intended to describe a real property of the universe that is good / bad / permissible / impermissible etc and apply that to certain acts. I recognise that there are a range of views of how this may be possible, and whilst I am not convinced based on what I have heard / read so far, I am still far too early in my reading to really know the options.

So, a few parameters to the thread
1. I am interested in what reasons atheists have for believing such morality can exist in a godless universe, but not if it is appeals to intuition without grounding that further.
2. I am interested in pushing back where I am not convinced, but will not be arguing for my own views. I genuinely want to get to understand different views better.
3. I am not interested in the question of whether such morality can exist if a version of theism is true. Whilst interesting, it isn't where I am most itching to learn
4. If there are theists who want to contribute I am not opposed, but not if it is about why theism works better. That could be an interesting conversation, but not one I am interested in right now on this thread.
5. Suggestions as to resources / scholars who hold a position being talked about would be appreciated.


Any thoughts from folks here? I might not reply to everything if too many answers come in, keeping things focussed will help my tiny brain to cope!

Sam Harris wrote a book that might interest you, The Moral Landscape.

(June 5, 2024 at 3:01 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Sam Harris wrote a book that might interest you, The Moral Landscape.

Thanks, that is on my stupidly large list. I have listened to some interviews with him about it and am still not convinced with the attempt to reduce morality to descriptive facts about the world. Any thoughts on what you find good points on this if you have read it?

Unlike some of my compadres on this forum (peace be upon them!), I don’t view morality as either objective or immutable. What is moral today is not what is moral a thousand years from now, or at a thousand years ago. Moral standards and strictures are determined by the attitudes prevalent at a particular time and place. Morality isn’t a ‘real property of the universe, any more than trends in fashion or taste in food.

Therefore, morality seems to slot very neatly into a godless universe.

Boru

(June 5, 2024 at 3:31 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Unlike some of my compadres on this forum (peace be upon them!), I don’t view morality as either objective or immutable. What is moral today is not what is moral a thousand years from now, or at a thousand years ago. Moral standards and strictures are determined by the attitudes prevalent at a particular time and place. Morality isn’t a ‘real property of the universe, any more than trends in fashion or taste in food.

Therefore, morality seems to slot very neatly into a godless universe.

Boru

Thanks Boru. I am interested in views of morality from a cognitivist realist perspective, you could be indicating something like this through a relativistic philosophy but I am not sure you are? Do you think that moral standards have some sort of force to direct motivation and actions that lies external to us but in societal norms somehow? Or are you saying that morality is just a projection of the common attitudes towards behaviours?

(June 5, 2024 at 3:40 pm)Lucian Wrote:

(June 5, 2024 at 3:31 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Unlike some of my compadres on this forum (peace be upon them!), I don’t view morality as either objective or immutable. What is moral today is not what is moral a thousand years from now, or at a thousand years ago. Moral standards and strictures are determined by the attitudes prevalent at a particular time and place. Morality isn’t a ‘real property of the universe, any more than trends in fashion or taste in food.

Therefore, morality seems to slot very neatly into a godless universe.

Boru

Thanks Boru. I am interested in views of morality from a cognitivist realist perspective, you could be indicating something like this through a relativistic philosophy but I am not sure you are? Do you think that moral standards have some sort of force to direct motivation and actions that lies external to us but in societal norms somehow? Or are you saying that morality is just a projection of the common attitudes towards behaviours?

The latter.

Boru

(June 5, 2024 at 3:41 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 5, 2024 at 3:40 pm)Lucian Wrote: Thanks Boru. I am interested in views of morality from a cognitivist realist perspective, you could be indicating something like this through a relativistic philosophy but I am not sure you are? Do you think that moral standards have some sort of force to direct motivation and actions that lies external to us but in societal norms somehow? Or are you saying that morality is just a projection of the common attitudes towards behaviours?

The latter.

Boru

Well I have no major quarrel with that opinion. Trying to be challenged by opinions I disagree with, and recognising I haven’t thought through those views well enough. 
Out of interest though, anything beyond Harris that you would recommend?

I didn't see a proper question. Morality could simply be a brute fact, that the universe has a moral dimension. As with most moral realistic theories, the ontology is simple, it's the epistemological challenge that's hard.

(June 5, 2024 at 3:47 pm)Angrboda Wrote: I didn't see a proper question.  Morality could simply be a brute fact, that the universe has a moral dimension.  As with most moral realistic theories, the ontology is simple, it's the epistemological challenge that's hard.

Thanks Angrboda. I agree that that could be the case, my interest is what you think supports that view. Further, what exactly do you think this moral dimension is, as in what makes a moral fact different from a fact about physics, or economics etc?

Morality is what I say is right.
Immorality is what I say is wrong!