(May 27, 2026 at 12:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ^I wonder when the word ‘dogma’ became a perjorative.

Boru

Perjorative?

Here is an MRI scan of my brain, every time i read the word "dogma". 

A redemptive forgiveness of spirituality is its apparent lack of proselytization.

Angrboda:
 

Quote:“What evidence do you have to support your belief that this is the case, whatever you mean by it?”

 
- We know that regular meditation supports the development of the Frontal Cortex (The part responsible for impulse control and creative thinking) of our brains.
 
+ At some point those who attain levels like “Samadhi” get to experience this “Pure consciousness” themselves in a way that is not based on anything but direct experience (the same principles are at work at other schools of spiritual enlightenment)
 
The Grand Nudger:
 

Quote:“I don't think it surprises any rational person that there are gaps in our knowledge. It often surprises me what people want to cram in them, though. I also wonder why people who believe in spiritual whatsits would want to erect a wall between their beliefs and rational ones. I'd say think it through....more carefully..but considering the aim...
 
At any rate, what you're describing with a set of practices given to people by some authority figure would likely be called a religion, not spirituality.”
 

1) I don’t believe in a “God of the Unknown” as Neil Degrasse Tyson defines it. Scientific knowledge + the act of learning are extremely valuable for us. But I’m almost sure that if I was immortal, and kept living for several lifetime the way I’M living this lifetime I still would not be any closer to understanding “The Truth”.
 
2) Yes but I believe that all religions actually started as methods of spiritual enlightenment and then degenerated into repetitive dogmatic types of behaviors that are completely useless in spiritual terms.  
 
Angrboda:
 

Quote:“Spirituality is an interesting map, it just doesn't seem to correspond to any actual territory.”

 
-Where typical religious bigots are lying and being perfect hypocrites, true spirituality provides approaches that will allow us to be more tolerant even against such ego-centered and even antagonistic personalities. 
 
AFD 47:
 

Quote:“The bottom line is that spirituality is subjective experience.”

 
Yes, but it’s a universal subjective experience. Like people approaching death having very relaxing dreams about their already deceased loved ones. So the phenomenon is still there
 
Belaqua:
 

Quote:“You say that the method you're thinking of can give you "Knowledge itself." But as I understand it, knowledge is always knowledge of something. You can't have content-free knowledge. So the obvious question is: knowledge of what?”

 
- Of everything that’s worth knowing. That’s what happens when you are spiritually enlightnened.
 

Quote:“So the idea that there is a "true knowledge of our Inner Nature" perhaps needs more explication. Is the Inner Nature something unchangeable and given from birth, like Aristotle's concept of a human essence? Or is it something one develops and learns through spiritual practices?
 
Intellect can be a very sharp tool indeed. Normally people think it isn't sufficient for spirituality.”

 
- It’s nothing like Aristotle’s philosophical concepts. As I said some people (including myself) are like this poor guy trying to understand the Ocean by filling it in a little hole that he dug on the seashore. With our intellect only, we simply cannot understand what’s happening here completely. So 1) We accept this simple fact of life and 2) If that’s our inclination, we can make time to study the genuine spiritual teachings of this world.
 
 
 

Quote:“I'm reminded of the quote from Stephen Jay Gould:
 
"I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.””

 
- That’s not what I said. As humans we have many reasons to be hopeful about ourselves. But look at how scores of people in the US are doing everything to destroy everything that was created in 1776. I’m am experiencing the exact same thing here. Here too we have these TWD zombie herds who vote for the stupidest candidate to be our prime-minister while young people are simply saddened and start hating politics because it has turned into such a stupid way of spending our time in general.
 
/ Yet spirituality explains these too. I cannot elaborate here too much. But some people have simply weaker energies + weaker intellectual capacities.
 
I used to be so angry on these issues in my younger years. Now I’m just saying “Let go and let God”.
 
Really. Everyone should try this sometimes


 

Quote:“Surely it depends on which dogma and which ritual. Some are outdated. Some are still useful -- though I agree that when people believe something these days they are reluctant to use the word "dogma."

 
It seems to me that new dogmas and new rituals might be useful for a lot of people.”
 
- You are right on this. Boomers did not face the problems we are facing now. They lived in an era before 9/11 and before things like the IRI. So I sort of envy them on how easily they can devote themselves to religious rituals without being suspected of having ties with political-Islamist ideologies.
 
All of this went down as early as the 1990’s. On a personal level: I needed distance between me and all of this. As a result, I’m not even celebrating religious holidays anymore.
 
So whoever it is you are referring to, I sort of admire these people.


 
BrianSoddingBoru:
 

Quote:“I wonder when the word ‘dogma’ became a pejorative.”

 
I would say since a certain tipping point in the 20th century. Serf-like people believe and live according to dogmas. More “energized” individuals of our age need more than “somebody said so” kind of arguments to justify their belief systems.
 
Desse23:
 

Quote:“Spirituality:
Ask 10 people about a definition and you get 20 different answers with 25 methods, none of which can be demonstrated to actually work.
Science on the other hand is when someone give you a method. One that works. If you can apply this method in a correct manner, you get to know Knowledge itself.”

 
- The main methods of true spirituality are universal in most cases.

Quote: 
“Do you think unwarranted beliefs like this are a net positive or net negative to the individual and society, aside from sometimes being life saving?”

 
- If you are talking about basic utilitarianism, like many women believing in astrology, I see no harm in that. Absolutely none.
 
And that’s what I said in the beginning. I do not take myself so seriously anymore. Just like Aristotle with that guy on the beach. I mean – Yes science is a great thing. But we don’t even know whatever is present in that empty space in front of us. And this is a very basic truth in this realm of existence

(May 27, 2026 at 3:52 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Angrboda:
 

Quote:“What evidence do you have to support your belief that this is the case, whatever you mean by it?”

 
- We know that regular meditation supports the development of the Frontal Cortex (The part responsible for impulse control and creative thinking) of our brains.
 
+ At some point those who attain levels like “Samadhi” get to experience this “Pure consciousness” themselves in a way that is not based on anything but direct experience (the same principles are at work at other schools of spiritual enlightenment)

I see you've drunk the koolaid. The frontal cortex performs multiple functions. Saying meditation supports development of it isn't linking it to anything specific.

Those who get to experience samadhi claim that it is such and so. That doesn't make the claim true. Meditation and mindfulness have effects on consciousness' phenomenology, what the specific nature of those changes signifies is not clear. Since it's a part of the claim that it is some kind of super conscious state, and not something in the evidence, this makes the evidentiary value nil.

You're simply putting the cart before the horse. Assuming the claims are true in determining what counts as evidewnce. That's not how it works.

(May 27, 2026 at 3:52 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Desse23:
 

Quote:“Spirituality:
Ask 10 people about a definition and you get 20 different answers with 25 methods, none of which can be demonstrated to actually work.
Science on the other hand is when someone give you a method. One that works. If you can apply this method in a correct manner, you get to know Knowledge itself.”

 
- The main methods of true spirituality are universal in most cases.

This is an example of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. You pick out spiritual practices that have a universal appeal and draw a circle around it and label it true spirituality. The circle you drew has no objective reason for having been drawn thus, thus your "true spirituality" is an artifact caused by you doing the selecting with that end in mind.

I'm always wary of the claim that a practice is special, because its application isn't necessarily helpful for everyone.

(May 27, 2026 at 3:52 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote:

Quote:“I don't think it surprises any rational person that there are gaps in our knowledge. It often surprises me what people want to cram in them, though. I also wonder why people who believe in spiritual whatsits would want to erect a wall between their beliefs and rational ones. I'd say think it through....more carefully..but considering the aim...
 
At any rate, what you're describing with a set of practices given to people by some authority figure would likely be called a religion, not spirituality.”
 

1) I don’t believe in a “God of the Unknown” as Neil Degrasse Tyson defines it. Scientific knowledge + the act of learning are extremely valuable for us. But I’m almost sure that if I was immortal, and kept living for several lifetime the way I’M living this lifetime I still would not be any closer to understanding “The Truth”.

Consider how much of a tragedy that would actually be.  Really.  You seem like a smart guy.  
 

Quote:2) Yes but I believe that all religions actually started as methods of spiritual enlightenment and then degenerated into repetitive dogmatic types of behaviors that are completely useless in spiritual terms.

Have you spent much time assessing whether your own ideas about "spirituality" have crossed that same rubicon...degenerating into your "religion"....? Completely useless in spiritual terms......
 

Quote:- The main methods of true spirituality are universal in most cases.

.....this wasn't addressed to me, but it's just a perfect prompt.  So, when I say that your "spirituality" sounds more like "religion" and you respond to others about the universality of the subjective experience of spirituality I see an opening for agreement.  I would consider spirituality a universal phenomena as well.  However, it's universality in the specifics is exactly the dividing line between religion and spirituality.  Spirituality being the subjective apprehension of a sense of the numinous, of connectedness, of meaning-as-such, and the awe..the altered perception... that it inspires within us.  A fundamentally subjective experience.  Religion, in contrast, is a method devised by a community meant to constrain and give structure to the raw experience, to unify it with history and (expectations, hopes, demands of) future... to utilitarian ends.  

So, when you say as you said above that all spirituality devolves(d) into religion I'm left with a very amusing picture.  That of this raw but impenetrable (???) experience being made less somehow by any attempt to make a world more concordant with the same. To give it a theological interpretation that expresses my amusement...maybe god is love...but even if that were true trying to make the world love is degenerate, and completely useless.

In spiritual terms, ofc.

(May 27, 2026 at 4:25 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(May 27, 2026 at 3:52 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: Desse23:
 


 
- The main methods of true spirituality are universal in most cases.

This is an example of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. You pick out spiritual practices that have a universal appeal and draw a circle around it and label it true spirituality. The circle you drew has no objective reason for having been drawn thus, thus your "true spirituality" is an artifact caused by you doing the selecting with that end in mind.

Until now I thought Leo was from Turkey, but I just learned he is a scotsman, a true scotsman.

(May 27, 2026 at 3:52 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: - Of everything that’s worth knowing. That’s what happens when you are spiritually enlightnened.

I think you're defining spirituality, and the goals of spirituality, in ways that are still unclear to me. 

First, you say that spirituality requires a method of attaining knowledge. It would help me understand if you could give me an example of such a method. Is it meditation? Mindfulness? Some sort of introspection? I don't see it yet.

Secondly, you say that the knowledge one gains from spiritual practice is "everything that's worth knowing." Here too, an example would help me understand. I assume that practical knowledge like how to pay one's taxes properly isn't included in this spiritual gain. 

Could you give me an example of what's included in the "everything that's worth knowing"?

(May 28, 2026 at 8:49 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(May 27, 2026 at 3:52 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: - Of everything that’s worth knowing. That’s what happens when you are spiritually enlightnened.

I think you're defining spirituality, and the goals of spirituality, in ways that are still unclear to me. 

First, you say that spirituality requires a method of attaining knowledge. It would help me understand if you could give me an example of such a method. Is it meditation? Mindfulness? Some sort of introspection? I don't see it yet.

Secondly, you say that the knowledge one gains from spiritual practice is "everything that's worth knowing." Here too, an example would help me understand. I assume that practical knowledge like how to pay one's taxes properly isn't included in this spiritual gain. 

Could you give me an example of what's included in the "everything that's worth knowing"?

He’s also implying that the non-spiritual isn’t worth knowing, or that non-spiritual people can’t know anything worthwhile. That’s problematic, to put it mildly.

Boru