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Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
(September 8, 2026 at 3:50 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(September 8, 2026 at 12:19 pm)Jal Wrote: That assessment seems terribly dishonest.  It's not incredulity that denies tangible-intangible collisions. It's tautology and common sense.

A tangible object is BY DEFINITION a collision-able object. (Just like a square is by definition an example of a rectangle).
Conversely an intangible object is BY DEFINITION a non-collision-object.  Therefore an intangible will never push tangible matter. Period.

Yet you endlessly and dishonestly repeat the accusation that my incredulity alone is driving this conclusion.

Your incredulity about the opposite is the only thing holding you to these principles. And I'm pretty sure those aren't a part of the definitions.

Oxford English Dictionary Wrote:tangible

A.
adjective

1.a.
1589–
Capable of being touched; affecting the sense of touch; touchable.

Oxford English Dictionary Wrote:intangible

A.
adjective

a.
1640–
Not tangible; incapable of being touched; not cognizable by the sense of touch; impalpable.



[Image: Screenshot-2026-09-08-at-15-09-42-what-w...-Googl.png]

Nuh uhh
Inconceivable mumbo jumbo
Goddidit
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Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
(September 8, 2026 at 2:34 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(September 8, 2026 at 12:42 pm)Jal Wrote: I thought most atheists were somewhat agnostic, viz. "No one has found a good reason to believe in God, but I suppose His existence is a remote possibility."

But on this thread the atheistic disposition seems to be, "I know for a fact that God doesn't exist." Is that where you stand? You claim to be 100% sure that God doesn't exist?

In which case I wonder how you would know for sure, that is, infallibly. Are you infallible?

Do you have to be infallible to be sure that God exists? Certainty and fallibility are not on the same axis.

Yes. If I claim, "I'm 100% sure that God exists", I'm saying that I am infallible on that point. Because I'm saying, "There's zero chance of me being wrong on this assertion."

Is that correlation so difficult to see?
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
(September 8, 2026 at 2:38 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(September 8, 2026 at 12:48 pm)Jal Wrote: No it's not a conflation since I believe that, over 4 billion years, several times Yahweh introduced new varieties of DNA. Whereas you're assuming that DNA sprouted only once (abiogenesis) and then evolved. 

So for example, having had success with apes, Yahweh probably took a segment of ape DNA, made some minor adjustments, lo and behold the first humans. 
I mean, why start fresh? Why not build on an existing proven model?

It's not an assumption. It's not a problem for abiogenesis or evolution if DNA started many times. It's just not what the available evidence indicates.

Why should an infinitely creative omnipotent being not start fresh every time, instead of endlessly repeating themselves and micro-tweaking gene sequences? That sounds more like aliens than the Yahweh who spoke the universe into being.
Infinite? Omnipotent? Speaks the universe into existence?  You seem to be addressing a different poster, and probably no one on this thread.
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
(Yesterday at 4:18 am)Deesse23 Wrote:
(September 8, 2026 at 3:50 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Your incredulity about the opposite is the only thing holding you to these principles.  And I'm pretty sure those aren't a part of the definitions.





[Image: Screenshot-2026-09-08-at-15-09-42-what-w...-Googl.png]

Nuh uhh
Inconceivable mumbo jumbo
Goddidit
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Nothing you've posted here refutes my claim that tangible is by definition collision-able, for example you mentioned "touchable" as a valid definition.  Are you not comprehending your own posts?
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
@OakTree500
@Angrboda
@Deesse23
@Fake Messiah
@Paleophyte



This post is another effort to explain why species would not survive deterministic metaphysics.

Modern science is tunnel-visioned, it wants to explain everything as mechanical causality. For example spark-plug-explosions in a car  push down the pistons attached to a crankshaft, thereby cranking up rotational momentum. The wheels begin to spin, and the car moves.  Domino effect.

When I attend a movie theater (see post 320), is it by such a fully deterministic domino effect?

You might respond: "Yes. Deterministic forces CAUSE you to desire to see a movie, and those desires, in turn, cause you to visit the theater."

Nope. That explanation utterly fails. A desire is just a subjective hunger (internal feeling). It is not a domino effect that pushes your body toward the theater. In a determinism, therefore, you cannot proactively react to your hunger, you cannot INITIATE an effort to satiate, your body is just a passive domino.  No amount of movie-hunger will push your body to the theater. Just like, even if a car mentally hungered to translocate, it won't actually move until the pistons fire, pushing that body of matter. That's the problem here.

In terms of push-pull cause-effect (an effect COMPELLED by laws of nature), probably the MAXIMUM the universe could compel you to do is coerce a simple knee jerk reaction from you.  When a doctor hits my knee with a rubber mallet, I am caught off guard, I am genuinely SURPRISED by the involuntary knee jerk suddenly COMPELLED of me. Which is completely different than voluntarily attending a movie. I am never SURPRISED that I found myself in a theater. I am not a passive domino who was knee-jerked into that auditorium. Rather, I proactively move myself (I voluntarily self-locomote) wherever my hunger is inclined to go. In word, I INITIATE. This is not mere push-pull determinism.

Furthermore a knee jerk is simple, crude motility. How about motions more complex? After using his rubber mallet to jerk your knee, could the same doctor compel your fingers to play piano? Or, even more to the point, can we use mallets to COMPEL mammals to hunt and gather food, and ingest water? Suppose the mammal is currently facing in a direction that points AWAY from the water, how will the universe manage, in a compelling way, to rotate its body to the correct angle, before pushing it forward ? Bear in mind that  a deterministic mammal can't proactively "go wherever it wants."

In REALITY, mammals consistently do precisely that - they go wherever they want. When my cat hungers to go outside, it heads to the door, but pauses there and looks back at me until I open it. Even then it doesn’t head outside. It protrudes its head through the crack, looks around and, if it dislikes what it sees, it reverses direction back into the apartment. None of this is an involuntary knee-jerk compulsion that leaves the cat SURPRISED at the final outcome. On the contrary, the cat proactively DICTATES its outcome according to whatever it wants. Clearly a deterministic domino-universe is not in control - the cat itself is in control.

Although Merleau Ponty wasn’t a panpsychic (he never claimed that ALL matter is innately conscious) he DID insist, and famously defended his belief, that the entire human body is innately conscious. He pointed out, for example, that the brain, in human motility, doesn't have to command each muscle, limb, and digit to move to each spatial coordinate X, Y, Z. Hence Ponty described playing piano as "knowledge in the hands." My point is that even something as simple as ingesting food or water involves complex motility because X,Y,Z coordinates VARY. Since the brain cannot even CONSCIOUSLY manage to calculate and provide the X,Y,Z coordinates for motility, how will a domino-effect BLINDLY do it?  Utter nonsense.


To summarize, since a deterministic universe isn't skilled at eliciting involuntary reactions - it can barely accomplish a simple knee jerk much less handle X,Y, Z coordinates - it cannot deterministically coerce us do complex things such as hunt and gather food, care for our offspring, follow a recipe, attend a movie, perform carpentry, conduct engineering, repair an automobile, or play a piano. In fact NONE of these activities are involuntary knee-jerk reactions that SURPRISE us. A blind domino-effect won't consistently induce these behaviors, much less CONCIDENTALLY induce them at the exact same moment we hunger for these activities. To believe in that kind of coincidence is idiocy.

Clearly, I am not  a domino who must WAIT upon a deterministic universe in the vain HOPE that it might happen to coincidentally/ fortuitously push me in the desired direction. Rather I proactively self-locomote as to self-determine my trajectories. Period.

Finally, self-locomotion seems to be a necessary postulate. Otherwise the entire metaphysics lacks a First Mover.
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
Quote: He pointed out, for example, that the brain, in human motility, doesn't have to command each muscle, limb, and digit to move to each spatial coordinate X, Y, Z.  Hence Ponty described playing piano as "knowledge in the hands." 

Remove the piano player's brain and her ability to play will be notably curtailed.

Millenium hand and shrimp. Bugrit.

Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
Looks like we have to add "reflexes" to the INCONCEIVABLY long list of things someone is ignorant of.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
(Today at 6:09 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Looks like we have to add "reflexes" to the INCONCEIVABLY long list of things someone is ignorant of.

Whether the brain doesn't have to 'command each muscle, limb, and digit to move each spatial coordinate X,Y,Z' can be determined by a realtively simple and repeatable experiment.

Find a test subject and remove their brain. Dice the brain. Grind the bits. Burn the mush. Then repeatedly toss a ball to the subject and record how many times they catch it.

Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
There are STORIES......


The most famous legend of Störtebeker relates to the execution itself. Störtebeker is said to have asked the mayor of Hamburg to release as many of his companions as he could walk past after being beheaded. Following the granting of this request and the subsequent beheading, Störtebeker's body arose and walked past eleven of his men before the executioner tripped him with an outstretched foot. Nevertheless, the eleven men were executed along with the others. The senate of Hamburg asked the executioner if he was not tired after all this, but he replied he could easily execute the whole of the senate as well. For this, he himself was sentenced to death and executed by the youngest member of the senate.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Natural Selection Seems Insufficient
(Today at 6:09 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Looks like we have to add "reflexes" to the INCONCEIVABLY long list of things someone is ignorant of.

That's how hunger works?  Reflexes like - a knee jerk from a rubber mallet? 

Ok let me get this straight. I'm just a domino. A passive observer. At the moment of hunger, the universe just so HAPPENS to intervene.  (Oh lucky me!). It issues me a series of knee-jerk stimuli, and I can no more halt these effects than I can keep my leg steady from the rubber mallet.

This series of knee-jerk stimuli cause me to INVOLUNTARILY do the following:
- I don some attire.
- I grab my wallet and my keys
- I enter the car and drive to the grocery store
- I purchase the list of items in my favorite recipe.
- I come back home and cook it, and eat it.

 And since I'm just a passive domino, I'm just as SURPRISED by each of these activities as I am by a sudden knee jerk. I had no control, I couldn't have stopped the process if I wanted to. Each activity was a deterministic push/ impetus outside of my control.

That's how it works, huh? Ok. Got it.
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