(September 30, 2026 at 12:15 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: If Christians (or better yet, their children) were more likely to go into spontaneous remision from deadly cancers more frequently than people from other religions or none, that would be evidence that relying on Yahweh can be helpful in a crisis, whether Yahweh is real or not.

More at relying on belief in Yahweh is helpful in a crisis. Sort of like playing poker better if you’re wearing your lucky hat - it’s beside the point that the hat has no magical powers.

Boru

(September 30, 2026 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(September 30, 2026 at 8:39 am)Silas Vane Wrote: Doctors deserve credit when their skill and decisions contribute to saving someone's life. But doctors also make mistakes. Operations go wrong. Treatments fail. Patients sometimes survive despite medical errors or terrible odds, just as patients sometimes die despite doctors doing everything correctly.
So simply saying, “It was the doctors, science and medicine that saved them” can be just as simplistic as the position you're criticizing.

That does not automaitcally result in goddidit. Cancer remits for reasons we dont know, yet. unexpected cures happen, because we dont know everything about medicine and human biology ...yet.

As long as:
#1 You havent established your god exists (prerequisite to making him a candidate explanation at all)
and
#2 *drumroll* didnt present evidence that he actually possibly did it
"it was the doctors" or "no idea", are to be preferred answers, if you are intellectually honest.

(September 30, 2026 at 8:39 am)Silas Vane Wrote: As a Christian, if someone survives despite an operation going badly, I can thank God for their survival without pretending the doctors did nothing.

But thats exactly what you just did. You didnt "thank God for making doctors help".

(September 30, 2026 at 8:39 am)Silas Vane Wrote: Likewise, when an operation goes perfectly, I can praise the surgeon's skill while still thanking God.

..which is entirely underserved, until you present evidence that your god #1 exists and #2 present evidence he added anything to the outcome.

(September 30, 2026 at 8:39 am)Silas Vane Wrote: Why can't human effort receive its proper credit while God also receives thanks?

Because, you know the drilll by now?.....

You havent established he exists and was able and willing to do anything.

Youre argument is scattered all over the place; but here is my response.

You're jumping ahead. I haven't argued, “Medicine failed, therefore God did it.”
I asked a much simpler question:
Given that people sometimes die despite the best medical care and sometimes survive despite medical failure, can every survival honestly be credited to medical science alone?
God's existence is a separate argument. Answer the claim actually being made first.

Dont get confused, just answer the question I put to you plainly; the question right infront of your eyes. And just so you dont get lost between the lines, Im gonna reiterate the question for you; Given that people sometimes die despite the best medical care and sometimes survive despite medical failure, can every survival honestly be credited to medical science alone?

(September 30, 2026 at 11:08 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(September 30, 2026 at 8:39 am)Silas Vane Wrote: Why can't human effort receive its proper credit while God also receives thanks?

Like those times when the doctors do everything they can, but god kills your loved one anyway?  Thanks god!

You just slipped from “the doctors couldn’t save them” to “God killed them.” That’s a claim, not an argument.

So establish the link: how did you determine that God killed the person rather than the doctors simply being unable to prevent their death?

Medicine is real. God is not.

(October 1, 2026 at 8:49 am)Silas Vane Wrote:

(September 30, 2026 at 11:08 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Like those times when the doctors do everything they can, but god kills your loved one anyway?  Thanks god!

You just slipped from “the doctors couldn’t save them” to “God killed them.” That’s a claim, not an argument.

So establish the link: how did you determine that God killed the person rather than the doctors simply being unable to prevent their death?

Well, it isn't the doctors that give people cancer.

And why would I thank a god that isn't there? Should I thank any other figments of my imagination?

(October 1, 2026 at 8:49 am)Silas Vane Wrote:

(September 30, 2026 at 11:08 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Like those times when the doctors do everything they can, but god kills your loved one anyway?  Thanks god!

You just slipped from “the doctors couldn’t save them” to “God killed them.” That’s a claim, not an argument.

So establish the link: how did you determine that God killed the person rather than the doctors simply being unable to prevent their death?

Looks like it's the believer having trouble giving god thanks to me. Maybe Mamaw was a real bitch and the big guy was just answering so many prayers. Or, like back when me and my bff Joel were the fastest kids in fifth grade. Every morning at our little yellow spanish style schoolhouse started with a run around the twenty acre perimeter fence. Nobody could beat us! Then...this fucking girl transferred one day.....and she was faster than both of us. We tried everything. Ran so hard it felt like our heads would pop. She still walked us. After months of this humiliation...she was in an accident and broke her ankle. Thanks god!

(October 1, 2026 at 8:49 am)Silas Vane Wrote:

(September 30, 2026 at 11:08 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Like those times when the doctors do everything they can, but god kills your loved one anyway?  Thanks god!

You just slipped from “the doctors couldn’t save them” to “God killed them.” That’s a claim, not an argument.

So establish the link: how did you determine that God killed the person rather than the doctors simply being unable to prevent their death?

If you have the means and opportunity to prevent or mitigate a crisis, there is a moral (and sometime legal) affirmative duty to do so. Whether God deliberately kills the patient or commits a failure to intervene to save the patient, the moral failing is the same.

Since God knows the suffering that will result from the death of the patient and deliberately chooses to let the patient die, God has effectively killed the patient.

Boru

(October 1, 2026 at 8:46 am)Silas Vane Wrote: You're jumping ahead. I haven't argued, “Medicine failed, therefore God did it.”

Good, kudos to you for admitting your god is not (yet) a probable influence to the outcome, or even a possible one. We are both on the same page here.

(October 1, 2026 at 8:46 am)Silas Vane Wrote: I asked a much simpler question:
Given that people sometimes die despite the best medical care and sometimes survive despite medical failure, can every survival honestly be credited to medical science alone?
God's existence is a separate argument. Answer the claim actually being made first.

I now wonder who is all over the place.
Didnt i tell you that, before you introduce your god into this scenario, you need to present evidence he exists at all?

If you are facing "unexpected/inexplicable" medial results, medical science is not necessarily to be credidet alone, but it could be (the "i dont know" factor). But firstly a honest reaction would be to say "i dont effing know". I told you that, didnt i? If you are trying to claim anything specifc (beyond medical science) is to be credited for inexplicable medical results, i am going to ask you for evidence.

Now, if you want to go beyond "i dont know", feel free to inroduce any potential additional or competing explanation. But please make sure that explanation is actually a possibility. If you want to sughest any agent beyond a doctor has anything to do with the outcome, please demonstrate this agent does even exist.

Given the facts that
#1 inexplicable medial result happens
#2 medicine exists and is a common cause for medical results
#3 nobody yet has demonstrated even the existence of a god-like entity, i am not even talking about it being able and willing to influence #1

What is the most intellectualy honest answer? " I dont know"? "Medicine!"? "Most probably medicine"? "Maybe something else but medicine?". "Certainly something else/additionally to medicine"? ...any other answer i forgot?

(October 1, 2026 at 8:46 am)Silas Vane Wrote: Dont get confused, just answer the question I put to you plainly; the question right infront of your eyes. And just so you dont get lost between the lines, Im gonna reiterate the question for you; Given that people sometimes die despite the best medical care and sometimes survive despite medical failure, can every survival honestly be credited to medical science alone?

Do i sound like i am impressed in any way shape or form by your condescension, in face of the fact that you are the one trying to shoehorn a god into this? You may claim to "completely separate the question of a competing explanation from the explanation being your favourite god", but you are still transparent like fresh air.

Lets not look for alternate explanations to medical science and then claim its your god. Lets see your evidence for the existence of your god first. If its not sufficient, we can spare everyone with the game of guessing what (other than medical science) incexplicably cured your neighbours cancer.

(October 1, 2026 at 8:49 am)Silas Vane Wrote: So establish the link: how did you determine that God killed the person rather than the doctors simply being unable to prevent their death?

Who created everything, including all the laws of nature that gave your neighbour cancer? Who could create a reality where people dont get cancer caused by random mutation in 66% of all cases, but only due to their own behaviour? Who is the only entity who had an effect on the randomness of cancer?

Muslims are pretty good at thanking god when things go wrong. Christians, not so much. They often have to be reminded that mamaws death, little girls broken ankles, and cancer...are all of part of gods great plan.