Heh. You remind me of a quote from Thoreau that I recently heard:

"The more he spoke of his honesty, the faster we counted the spoons."

Well you win, DP. I lay down my sword. Feel free to pierce me through and through if that is your wish. Tonight, I will be the lamb.



See ya round, cowboy.

There would be one less troll on our forum. Hmm

(January 22, 2012 at 1:54 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(January 22, 2012 at 5:36 am)Godschild Wrote: So it's not scripture that you want to argue, it's your idea that you have never nor will ever believe in any miracles because we live in a natural world.

Bingo except for that "nor will ever" part. You show me a miracle and I'll believe. The only thing I'm arguing from scripture is "do you really believe this crap?"

Your god was running amok in the days of old, according to your stories, overturning the natural order the same way that Jesus allegedly did to all the merchant stands in the Temple. These days, he can't seem to do much more than make an appearance on toast.

As I've repeatedly said in this thread, put up or shut up.

You seem to be overly irritated lately, just an observation, not trying to be critical.

Healing is not just for the one healed, it's also about glorifying God and growing His kingdom by helping people to believe (John 10:38, John 20:31). Here are two verses that show the disciples or the church was after money for miracles but, to glorify God and grow His kingdom (Acts 3:6, Acts 8:20-21). You have taken these two books and said they are proof that Christianity is a false religion full, of hoaxers who were full of woo, now I present parts of both books to you, as authentic, in what the Christian belief is.

Many people believed in these miracles then and even up to a couple hundred years ago when, man started to advance his medical knowledge. God uses doctors to heal people now, not to say that the doctor has nothing to do with the work, let's just say the healing that medicine can not explain, so we can keep this discussion on track. God use to bring many to belief through miracles, when people slowly began to reject these miracles for what ever reasons then, God started to use emotional and spiritual work through His people to bring persons to Him. This probably started around the time of reformation when people had greater access to God's word. The focus of all this is the growth of God's kingdom, when people choose to move away from God's salvation He will use other ways to reach people without limiting their freewill.

Quote:Healing is not just for the one healed, it's also about glorifying God and growing His kingdom by helping people to believe......God started to use emotional and spiritual work through His people to bring persons to Him.

I am thinking G-C those two statements are enough to get any rational thinking persons "Woo-Woo shit meter" raising alarms bells. Emotion and Spirit are human words used to identify oratory. Just sounds like 'Snake Oil Salesman' rhetoric to me and has / is used by advertising; quite successfully

(January 23, 2012 at 1:49 am)Godschild Wrote: You seem to be overly irritated lately, just an observation, not trying to be critical.

I think DeistPaladin may just be out of sorts or even a little sore from the new one Apophenia has been ripping for him.

I do get that he is not a big fan of the bible which is a point in his favor from my perspective. Not my perspective as an atheist but my perspective as an agnostic. I have no problem with theists or deists embracing their hunches regarding a 'higher power' about which I have no evidence one way or the other. I simply don't see how those hunches could possibly support anyone in believing any holy book is uniquely the inerrant word of god. Faith will cover your hunch that we're not 'alone' but it takes wishful thinking to think any book gives you objective knowledge of what we both know started out as your hunch.

(January 23, 2012 at 1:49 am)Godschild Wrote: Healing is not just for the one healed, it's also about glorifying God and growing His kingdom by helping people to believe (John 10:38, John 20:31). Here are two verses that show the disciples or the church was after money for miracles but, to glorify God and grow His kingdom (Acts 3:6, Acts 8:20-21). You have taken these two books and said they are proof that Christianity is a false religion full, of hoaxers who were full of woo, now I present parts of both books to you, as authentic, in what the Christian belief is.

Many people believed in these miracles then and even up to a couple hundred years ago when, man started to advance his medical knowledge. God uses doctors to heal people now, not to say that the doctor has nothing to do with the work, let's just say the healing that medicine can not explain, so we can keep this discussion on track. God use to bring many to belief through miracles, when people slowly began to reject these miracles for what ever reasons then, God started to use emotional and spiritual work through His people to bring persons to Him. This probably started around the time of reformation when people had greater access to God's word. The focus of all this is the growth of God's kingdom, when people choose to move away from God's salvation He will use other ways to reach people without limiting their freewill.

Let me get this straight.

Basically, your god used to heal with miracles. Then, for whatever reason, people stopped believing in miracles even though they were happening all around them. So, you god changed his MO and started using medical science? And that was somehow supposed to make people believe in him more rather than less? And he still continues to use medical science despite the fact that its not turning out any believers and miracles certainly will?

That's total bullshit. People can and do believe in things they cannot see, but they rarely disbelieve things they can see. People stopped believing in miracles because they realized that there were no such things.

(January 23, 2012 at 2:42 am)genkaus Wrote:

(January 23, 2012 at 1:49 am)Godschild Wrote: Healing is not just for the one healed, it's also about glorifying God and growing His kingdom by helping people to believe (John 10:38, John 20:31). Here are two verses that show the disciples or the church was after money for miracles but, to glorify God and grow His kingdom (Acts 3:6, Acts 8:20-21). You have taken these two books and said they are proof that Christianity is a false religion full, of hoaxers who were full of woo, now I present parts of both books to you, as authentic, in what the Christian belief is.

Many people believed in these miracles then and even up to a couple hundred years ago when, man started to advance his medical knowledge. God uses doctors to heal people now, not to say that the doctor has nothing to do with the work, let's just say the healing that medicine can not explain, so we can keep this discussion on track. God use to bring many to belief through miracles, when people slowly began to reject these miracles for what ever reasons then, God started to use emotional and spiritual work through His people to bring persons to Him. This probably started around the time of reformation when people had greater access to God's word. The focus of all this is the growth of God's kingdom, when people choose to move away from God's salvation He will use other ways to reach people without limiting their freewill.

Let me get this straight.

Basically, your god used to heal with miracles. Then, for whatever reason, people stopped believing in miracles even though they were happening all around them. So, you god changed his MO and started using medical science? And that was somehow supposed to make people believe in him more rather than less? And he still continues to use medical science despite the fact that its not turning out any believers and miracles certainly will?

That's total bullshit. People can and do believe in things they cannot see, but they rarely disbelieve things they can see. People stopped believing in miracles because they realized that there were no such things.

Your right the explanation you gave is totally as you described. I did not come close to saying anything like that. I stated that God still works miraculous healing for those He chooses, because doctors are involved people no longer believe that a miracle has occurred, even though the doctors can not explain how the healing happened. God does not use medical science to heal that is just a ridiculous statement, medical science has done wonderful things and will continue. Up through the 15th and 16th centuries there was little to no medical help for people. Most either got well or died, and there were those who were hopelessly ill or injured that had miraculous recoveries. So up through these years God was using miracles to help people to believe, He has not stopped miracle healing. God started using the availability of the Bible to the common people to bring a spiritual witness to people ever since the Bible was translated into the common language of the people.

Quote:That's total bullshit.

You can't expect anything else from G-C after all this time.

His god can do anything....he simply chooses not to.

I have a magic elf in my backyard who is the same way.

(January 23, 2012 at 1:49 am)Godschild Wrote: You seem to be overly irritated lately, just an observation, not trying to be critical.

I sincerely apologize. I've been struggling with depression lately, which seems to have the side effect of me getting inappropriately irritable with others without my being aware that I'm doing so.

I've made an appointment with a psychologist this next month to try to help me climb out of this emotional pit. I've gone into greater detail of what I'm struggling with in the mental illness support thread.

Again, my sincere apologies. I'm working on this and getting help.

---

(January 23, 2012 at 2:14 am)whateverist Wrote: I think DeistPaladin may just be out of sorts or even a little sore from the new one Apophenia has been ripping for him.

See above. Rest assured, nobody on this forum has caused my state of mind, one I've been struggling with for over a year now which has apparently gotten really bad in the last few weeks. It has more to do with my real life for reasons that I articulated in the linked thread above.

I genuinely don't get Apho's point. She seemed to be going Fox Mulder, suggesting that woo is out there but we just don't see it for some reason. Maybe it's my state of mind and someone else could explain her posts to me.

(January 23, 2012 at 7:58 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your right the explanation you gave is totally as you described. I did not come close to saying anything like that. I stated that God still works miraculous healing for those He chooses, because doctors are involved people no longer believe that a miracle has occurred, even though the doctors can not explain how the healing happened.

This is almost a perfect example of god-of-the-gaps. Doctors cannot explain how it happened, therefore goddidit. It would be more convincing if the miracles happened only to devout Christians rather that arbitrarily.

(January 23, 2012 at 7:58 pm)Godschild Wrote: God does not use medical science to heal that is just a ridiculous statement, medical science has done wonderful things and will continue. Up through the 15th and 16th centuries there was little to no medical help for people. Most either got well or died, and there were those who were hopelessly ill or injured that had miraculous recoveries. So up through these years God was using miracles to help people to believe, He has not stopped miracle healing. God started using the availability of the Bible to the common people to bring a spiritual witness to people ever since the Bible was translated into the common language of the people.

This is the craziest argument yet.

"Dammit. I've to work my ass off doing miracles to help everyone believe in me. There has to be an easier way to do this. I know, I'll let people get educated so they can read my book and then I can dial back and take a rest."

The depths of your self-delusion are truly staggering.