(February 2, 2012 at 8:10 pm)brotherlylove Wrote:

(February 2, 2012 at 7:50 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(February 2, 2012 at 6:08 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: Also, in the Christian worldview, we accept the supernatural claims of other religions. What we reject is their explanation for these events. What scripture says is that Satan also has supernatural power, and as the bible indicates, he can disguise himself as an angel of light, and his ministers, ministers of righteousness. He has the supernatural power to create what the bible calls "lying signs and wonders". He can back up belief in a false god with supernatural evidence.

I'm afraid you have been deceived, brotherlylove. As a devotee to the flying spaghetti god I can tell you that the true author of miracles is our own lord. However He is not the only one who can perform miracles. The dark lord, the saucy meatball god, can also fool men into believing they are witnessing true miracles. I am sorry to have to tell you that all the so called Christian 'miracles' are actually the product of the saucy deceiver. Only the flying spaghetti god can perform genuine miracles. Sadly, the deceiver has taken you in as he has so many others.

How am I knowing these wondrous facts you might ask? It is written in our most sacred text, The Joy of Pasta. Antonio, the Chief Chef himself, received the sacred stone menu boards from which all knowledge of the magnificent Flying Spaghetti god was first delivered to man. Antonio, blessed be his name, was an honest cook and had no reason to lie. Though the stone menu boards have been lost to history, their truth, the revealed word of the flying Spaghetti god, can still be found in the Joy of Pasta.

It isn't too late to repent. Turn away from this false god Jehovah and you can still be seated at the table of our true god. There you may feast on the seven blessed courses for all time. Now go and blaspheme no more!

I fully acknowledge there are thousands of religions, some more absurd than others. However, either one of them is right or none of them are. You believe none, I believe one.

For instance, 1 + 1 has only one right answer. We don't accept other answers to that problem as being equally valid. In the same way, I believe there is only one way to know God, and that it is through Jesus Christ.

On the other hand. What if you're wrong? Haven't you pretty much just decided that the religion you happened to have grown up in was the right one? You may have personal reasons for choosing Christianity which you think go beyond the fact of your growing up in it, but are those reasons of yours if spoken by someone of another faith anything that would dissuade you from Christianity? Probably not. I'll never understand your need to enlist the world to your belief system.

(February 2, 2012 at 11:13 pm)brotherlylove Wrote: You have the choice to disobey God much like you have the choice to walk out into traffic. No one said it was wise.

Idiotic analogy.
You know you will be bumped if you walk into traffic. Common sense! However, there is no evidence of burning in hell if you choose to ignore your imaginary friend. Show us the evidence if you want to put forward a counter claim!

whateverist Wrote:I'll never understand your need to enlist the world to your belief system.

It always baffles me too!! Is your deity so ineffectual that he requires so much grovelling? Or are you so insecure and fearful that you seek safety in numbers??

All rather pitiful really

(February 2, 2012 at 11:34 pm)whateverist Wrote: On the other hand. What if you're wrong? Haven't you pretty much just decided that the religion you happened to have grown up in was the right one? You may have personal reasons for choosing Christianity which you think go beyond the fact of your growing up in it, but are those reasons of yours if spoken by someone of another faith anything that would dissuade you from Christianity? Probably not. I'll never understand your need to enlist the world to your belief system.

I grew up in a secular home actually, without religion. I came to my faith much later in life. I investigated many of the religions and belief systems of this world, but I was led to Christianity. The reason I tell others to repent and accept the gospel is because that is what God commanded me to do. I also do it because I care about what happens to you, and I can sympathize because I used to be a skeptic.

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(February 2, 2012 at 11:35 pm)Forsaken Wrote: Idiotic analogy.
You know you will be bumped if you walk into traffic. Common sense! However, there is no evidence of burning in hell if you choose to ignore your imaginary friend. Show us the evidence if you want to put forward a counter claim!

It's funny that I have one person complaining hell is too coercive and another complaining it isn't coercive enough.

I put forward the evidence of your god given conscience which knows deep down it has transgressed Gods laws, based on the evidence of the guilt you feel for your sins.

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(February 2, 2012 at 11:37 pm)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

whateverist Wrote:I'll never understand your need to enlist the world to your belief system.

It always baffles me too!! Is your deity so ineffectual that he requires so much grovelling? Or are you so insecure and fearful that you seek safety in numbers??

All rather pitiful really

Scripture says that those who do not have the Holy Spirit cannot understand the gospel (which is true in my experience), so that is why we preach it. I explained it further in the post above the last one.

I think Penn Jillette gets it:

(February 3, 2012 at 12:00 am)brotherlylove Wrote: The reason I tell others to repent and accept the gospel is because that is what God commanded me to do. I also do it because I care about what happens to you, and I can sympathize because I used to be a skeptic.

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If you used to be a skeptic then you can appreciate how little that sort of concern would mean to us. Really, don't put yourself out.

Don't you miss the wind-in-your-face adventure of deciding things for yourself? Surely the effort to comply with all of God's directions can't be half so exciting. I wonder if you now expect more satisfaction in your hypothetical after-life, or in the only life we can both be sure you'll ever know right here and now.

(February 3, 2012 at 12:12 am)whateverist Wrote: If you used to be a skeptic then you can appreciate how little that sort of concern would mean to us. Really, don't put yourself out.

Don't you miss the wind-in-your-face adventure of deciding things for yourself? Surely the effort to comply with all of God's directions can't be half so exciting. I wonder if you now expect more satisfaction in your hypothetical after-life, or in the only life we can both be sure you'll ever know right here and now.

Ultimately what I was interested in before I became a Christian was truth, love and peace, things which are ever only temporary when you live for this world, because everything in the world is perishing. These are things I have to the fullest in Jesus Christ. Everyone in the world is seeking this permanance, because they are tossed to and fro by their own passions and desires, never finding any rest. Only in Christ can you find rest.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

So, I do not miss my old life or the old me, because underlying everything was a need for what I now have. People fool themselves into thinking they are good CEOs but in truth, if they did an honest evaluation from an objective standpoint, they would have themselves fired. You can't get one thing good in this life that isn't given to you from above. Therefore, it is endlessly futile to try to eke it out on your own. There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end its ways are death.

We cannot imagine how good the next life will be, that is how good it is:

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"

Living for the Lord is the most satisfying thing you can do, and His commandments are not burdensome. I am not in want of mystery or adventure; the greatest mysteries and adventures in life are always straight ahead of me, and now, always.

(February 2, 2012 at 10:05 pm)brotherlylove Wrote:

(February 2, 2012 at 8:20 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: So I trust you understand now. Do you believe that mortals can work magic?

I believe that God can do miracles through those who have received His Holy Spirit. It isn't a power from man, it is the power of God through man.

So how come BarJesus and other heretics could work magic?

Quote:You say it's all quiet today. I've met many people who claimed to be healed of various conditions, and I have no reason to believe they are lying. I've read countless reports and heard countless testimonies. There are thousands and thousands all over the internet. Why do you think it is so implausible that God is acting in the world?

Because there's no evidence to back up their claim. I can tell you I met God today who told me to tell you to put down the Bible and use only science and reason to understand your world. Do you believe me?

Quote:I'm not sure how I would prove a miracle to you.

I've said it before. Heal Stephen Hawking. Make him walk and talk again. I'll be on my knees a second later.

Quote:And so if everyone is delusional why aren't you delusional for believing in a supernatural creation of the Universe?

Because my beliefs don't contradict what we know of how the universe works.

Quote:So why couldn't He hypothetically intervene through mere mortals? If He can do anything, why not that?

It could. So, let's move beyond the hypothetical. Show me.

Quote:There is no difference at all. The supernatural is the supernatural. You either believe it or you don't, and apparently you believe it.

It depends on how you define "the supernatural". I think if we had infinite knowledge, we'd know the nature, properties and limitations of God. Would God still be supernatural, then?

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(February 3, 2012 at 12:00 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Scripture says that those who do not have the Holy Spirit cannot understand the gospel

This is probably my "favorite" apologetic argument (by which I mean the most laughably f-ed up).

You have to have the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible.

You get the Holy Spirit by believing the Bible.

But you have to understand something before you can say you sincerely believe it.

So you have to believe the Bible before you can understand it and you have to understand it in order to believe it.

Catch 22 anyone?

My advice to brotherly love, from very personal experience, Christianity will eventually disappoint you. It is attractive to you because you are a spiritual person. You seek happiness and joy but it will not be found in a European/Middle Eastern religion. It is too corrupt and it's theology is warped. You already sense this. I would advise someone like you to check out Buddhism. You will be much more at home in it. Unfortunately, you may face social isolation and greater uniqueness in following the Middle Way of the Buddha, but over time, it will be revealed as the greatest truth one could embody and enjoy! Life is a journey not a destination!

(February 3, 2012 at 12:45 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: [So how come BarJesus and other heretics could work magic?

You might have missed this from my orignal reply:

Also, in the Christian worldview, we accept the supernatural claims of other religions. What we reject is their explanation for these events. What scripture says is that Satan also has supernatural power, and as the bible indicates, he can disguise himself as an angel of light, and his ministers, ministers of righteousness. He has the supernatural power to create what the bible calls "lying signs and wonders". He can back up belief in a false god with supernatural evidence.

So, it is the same principle. Not a power from man, but a power from Satan through man.

(February 3, 2012 at 12:45 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Because there's no evidence to back up their claim. I can tell you I met God today who told me to tell you to put down the Bible and use only science and reason to understand your world. Do you believe me?

I'd believe it if He confirmed it to me.

(February 3, 2012 at 12:45 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: I've said it before. Heal Stephen Hawking. Make him walk and talk again. I'll be on my knees a second later.

You should investigate the life of Smith Wigglesworth sometime.

(February 3, 2012 at 12:45 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Because my beliefs don't contradict what we know of how the universe works.

According to every atheist and atheistic scientist I've ever heard of, they do. However you want to chop up your "mysterious mind", you are posulating intelligent design and special creation. Those words make atheists ears bleed.

(February 3, 2012 at 12:45 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: It could. So, let's move beyond the hypothetical. Show me.

I have prayed for you to receive a sign, and faith.

(February 3, 2012 at 12:45 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: It depends on how you define "the supernatural". I think if we had infinite knowledge, we'd know the nature, properties and limitations of God. Would God still be supernatural, then?

You mean to say that if you were to become omniscient you would understand how God is not omniscient? Doesn't seem like you can get around it. Anything which transcends this material reality is technically supernatural.

How/why do you think God is limited?

(February 3, 2012 at 12:45 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: This is probably my "favorite" apologetic argument (by which I mean the most laughably f-ed up).

You have to have the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible.

You get the Holy Spirit by believing the Bible.

But you have to understand something before you can say you sincerely believe it.

So you have to believe the Bible before you can understand it and you have to understand it in order to believe it.

Catch 22 anyone?

Romans 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by hearing the gospel, that is why God ordered us to preach it.

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(February 3, 2012 at 1:01 am)Bgood Wrote: My advice to brotherly love, from very personal experience, Christianity will eventually disappoint you. It is attractive to you because you are a spiritual person. You seek happiness and joy but it will not be found in a European/Middle Eastern religion. It is too corrupt and it's theology is warped. You already sense this. I would advise someone like you to check out Buddhism. You will be much more at home in it. Unfortunately, you may face social isolation and greater uniqueness in following the Middle Way of the Buddha, but over time, it will be revealed as the greatest truth one could embody and enjoy! Life is a journey not a destination!

Nice to meet you BGood. I appreciate your advice but I do have happiness and joy. What is your experience with Christianity?

Before I had faith in Jesus Christ, I had practiced some aspects of zen buddhism. I seeked to empty myself of self, and I believed in karma/maya conceptions. I have found that buddhism is right in that the self is the issue, but getting rid of it isn't the solution, and that you couldn't even if you wanted to. The self is one part body one part soul and one part spirit. And it isn't simply a matter of conditioning your heart and mind to excise what is corrupt, because the heart is endlessly corrupt and the mind simply justifies everything it wants and does.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

The solution is to receive a new heart and spirit to replace the corrupt ones we are born with.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

We receive these things from the only perfect man to ever walk the Earth, and that is Jesus Christ. He defeated death and sin and made the way for us. I know buddhism believes in reincarnation but scripture says it is appointed for man to die once and then the judgement. So, we don't have any do overs.

(February 3, 2012 at 1:17 am)brotherlylove Wrote: So, it is the same principle. Not a power from man, but a power from Satan through man.

Which brings us back to why it's not happening today? "It is. I saw it on the 700 Club" is not sufficient evidence to convince me that it's happening today.

Quote:I'd believe it if He confirmed it to me.

God told me that It doesn't want to take away your free will. You've already been given the Truth through the Gift of Reason. Life is a test. If you die still believing these false, terrifying and silly stories about God, you'll be condemned to spend thousands of years writing "I won't believe silly superstitions" over and over again on a blackboard while I'm in paradise enjoying my three bisexual wives and one bisexual husband. Do you really want to take that chance?

(February 3, 2012 at 12:45 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: I've said it before. Heal Stephen Hawking. Make him walk and talk again. I'll be on my knees a second later.

Quote:You should investigate the life of Smith Wigglesworth sometime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Wigglesworth

Would it be safe to assume that none of his magical healings were ever peer-reviewed by the medical profession?

Oh, and God says he was a charlatan.

Quote:However you want to chop up your "mysterious mind", you are posulating intelligent design and special creation.

God doesn't preclude evolution. In fact, deism dovetails nicely with evolution. We are "rational animals" as one deist once said, long before Darwin's discoveries.

God has just told me It agrees but that the process isn't finished yet. Our evolution is still unfolding. It said that It won't "spoil the surprise" of how this all ends but has hinted that there will be "intelligent life" on this planet one day.

Quote:I have prayed for you to receive a sign, and faith.

God says you're wasting your time.

Quote:You mean to say that if you were to become omniscient you would understand how God is not omniscient?

God wanted me to ask you who said It was omniscient? or omnipotent? or perfect? It turns out God is a lot more modest than Its reputation would suggest.

Evolution doesn't preclude God but it does disprove a perfect or omnipotent god.

Quote:Doesn't seem like you can get around it. Anything which transcends this material reality is technically supernatural.

How so? If it exists, it can be observed. If it can be observed, it can be studied. If it can be studied, it can be understood. If it can be understood, it's part of the natural universe.

Quote:How/why do you think God is limited?

An omnipotent god wouldn't need evolution or millions of years to accomplish it all.

Quote:Faith comes by hearing the gospel, that is why God ordered us to preach it.

But I have heard the Gospel. I can probably quote it better than any Christian. I don't believe it. But I need to believe it in order to receive the Holy Spirit. But only by receiving the Holy Spirit can I believe it. Catch 22.