Hear hear!

Theists have just as much "proof" against trickster gods as they do promoting their intended ones, simply because they have to use their holy texts as evidence.

(February 10, 2012 at 1:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: The enemy is still unknown, those precautions were actually recommended by demons as a trap.

Sure he would, to give you the impression that he is weak or capable of being defeated, which he is not. That's how trickster gods work, they trick you. How hard is this to understand?

Is it hard to understand that not knowing you have an enemy is more advantageous for an enemy than knowing that you do have one, even if you are uninformed about it? One of the greatest tricks Satan ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist.

(February 10, 2012 at 1:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: How then, might I ask, are you aware of Satan's existence in light of the claim that you opened this bit with? Try not to shoot your own feet when you aim at me. Fighting against Jesus Christ? I'm ridiculing your fairy tale, there's nothing to fight. It's his flock that I have issue with.

I'm only aware of it because God led me to the truth, which I have seen with my own eyes; that is, demon possession.

(February 10, 2012 at 1:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: My reactions to what, christianity? My reaction to christianity is that there is no connection to reality there..... Maybe you shouldn't waste your time trying to convince people that fairies exist eh? At what point did you lose your handle on that, since you seemed to have grasped it in the past?

I can't convince you of anything; it is a heart matter between you and God. I am here doing what the Lord wants me to do.

(February 10, 2012 at 1:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: Neither am I, and again, if your fairy does exist I still don't want anything to do with it, because it disgusts me.

If you hate God, you hate the source of all goodness and love. What is in your heart? Can you see how illogical it is to hate the one that made you and blessed you? You're saying even if you knew Jesus is God, you wouldn't be a Christian. Even though all the good things that you have in life came from Him. How ridiculous is that?

(February 10, 2012 at 1:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: You;re right on that count, I do have more than a clue, which is why I'm an atheist. Is that your wager? Next time you consider making a wager, don't, you don't have any talent for it.

It doesn't appear you are going to be honest about it anytime soon.

(February 10, 2012 at 1:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: Ive met many atheists who believe in magic as well, and? Spirit does not equal god, one can be an atheist and believe in spirits (though if he;s claiming knowledge, it would be nice to see his evidence).

You think it is logical to believe that you just have a spirit and it didn't come from somewhere?

(February 10, 2012 at 1:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: Visions are evidence now? I was unaware. That being said, if I had a "vision" of jesus it wouldn't change my opinion of jesus one bit. Except, of course, if in that vision Jesus explained to me exactly how badly you christians botched his story.

What do you think His story is?

(February 10, 2012 at 1:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: There is no such god, and there is no such authority. What exactly do you think I would have to change btw? I'm a married father of 4 that provides for most of my family either completely or partially, I have never been charged with of or convicted of any crime, I treat people around me fairly and kindly.....you're just a fundie douchebag attempting to play god and pass judgement on someone you've never met. Go fuck yourself.

So do you think the number of times you've violated the ten commandments is only in the low thousands then?

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(February 10, 2012 at 9:04 am)genkaus Wrote: An underestimated enemy is far worse than either. If you don't know the enemy, you can keep on building your defenses to counter any level of strength. But if you know the enemy and have underestimated him, then he has the advantage of knowing that you are not as secure as you think.

That is why Satan included himself in the bible, presenting himself as a weak and ineffectual fallen angel. He wants you to feel safe in believing you have god's protection when you don't.

If you believe that you're a lousy tactician. An unseen enemy is far more dangerous than an underestimated enemy. You wouldn't be building any defenses if you didn't know you had any reason to build them in the first place.

(February 10, 2012 at 9:04 am)genkaus Wrote: He wants you to think that to god, your good deeds have the value equivalent of dirty rags, so that you'd think that spreading the "message of god" is more important than actually doing good deeds. He wants you to think that your sins are erased simply by having faith and accepting JC, so that you wouldn't actually work to erase your sins and then you will go straight to hell into his waiting arms.

According to the bible, faith without works is dead. The bible commands us to do good works at every point. A Christian entering the Kingdom would have more than enough good works to justify his entry, if that were true.

(February 10, 2012 at 9:04 am)genkaus Wrote: Imagine if a being like god actually existed, what would he be like. He wouldn't care about people believing in him, because he doesn't need others to validate his existence. He wouldn't care about spending eternity listening to praises of his glory, he'd know how awesome he is. He wouldn't care if people followed arbitrary rules he might or might not have made up just because they believe he did. He'd want people to make up their own fucking minds about things rather than taking his word for it and if they came to a different conclusion, he wouldn't penalize them for it.

It has nothing to do with God needing to be acknowledged, it has to do with sin. God is a just judge and isn't going to fail to punish sin. Those who refuse to repent of sin and turn from their ways, who reject their own pardon, are on their own. He sent His only Son, His heart, to save His creatures from their sins, and if they want to spit on that they shouldn't expect any further mercies.

(February 10, 2012 at 9:04 am)genkaus Wrote: A mediocre mind seeks to control and demands obedience from other minds, where as an extraordinary mind seeks company of equivalent measure. If there is a god, the only thing certain is that he'd be fucking lonely. Maybe that's why he created humans - in the hopes that eventually there might be someone out of that species he could hold an interesting conversation with. Someone who would possibly make him say "Huh, I never thought of it like that". If so, he'd definitely not want any fundies in heaven because the only things they say is already laid out in a bible - a book written specifically to screw him over.

God created out of the abundance of His love, not because He needed anything. God is a triune being; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. He wasn't lonely; He has perfect love on His own. God created us to adopt us into His family as sons and daughters, and to perfect in the image of His Son.

In the world to come we will know God as He knows us now. We will see Him as He really is, face to face. He is creating the perfect reality, one that will last forever, and this is the proving ground. This is where creatures can freely choose to be a part of it or not. There is nothing in this world which isn't perishing. You came into this world empty and you are going to leave it the same way. To choose this world and its short term pleasures over eternal life with God is not thinking very clearly.

(February 11, 2012 at 5:44 am)brotherlylove Wrote: If you believe that you're a lousy tactician. An unseen enemy is far more dangerous than an underestimated enemy. You wouldn't be building any defenses if you didn't know you had any reason to build them in the first place.

Ofcourse you would. That's just plain common sense. But then, you fundies don't have a lot of that.

(February 11, 2012 at 5:44 am)brotherlylove Wrote: According to the bible, faith without works is dead. The bible commands us to do good works at every point. A Christian entering the Kingdom would have more than enough good works to justify his entry, if that were true.

Like I said, truth with lies. That's how Satan succeeds. Not all things the bible tells you are good works are actually good works. Like th ebible tells you that going and preaching the message of god is a "good work", its not. That's a ploy by Satan to make you waste your time.

(February 11, 2012 at 5:44 am)brotherlylove Wrote: It has nothing to do with God needing to be acknowledged, it has to do with sin. God is a just judge and isn't going to fail to punish sin. Those who refuse to repent of sin and turn from their ways, who reject their own pardon, are on their own. He sent His only Son, His heart, to save His creatures from their sins, and if they want to spit on that they shouldn't expect any further mercies.

Mission Fucking Accomplished. This is exactly what Satan wanted you to think. God is just, then he wouldn't just give you a pardon in form of his "son". Why should he have to bear the responsibilities for your sins.

Forgivness must be earned - Satan realized that and set about to deceive us all about how it could be earned. He came up with this wonderful story about how JC died for our sins and the pardon is simply out there - we just need to "accept it". Its brilliant. It plays at our greatest weakness - getting something for free. That's the bait and Satan's got you - hook, line and sinker. I mean come on, do you seriously believe that someone is going to give you "eternal happiness" just in exchange of believing in something? That's the greatest con job in the history.

If there is a sin, it is the most heinous and corrupt of all mortal sins and the root of all others - the abdication of your mind and accepting something on faith.

(February 11, 2012 at 5:44 am)brotherlylove Wrote: God created out of the abundance of His love, not because He needed anything. God is a triune being; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. He wasn't lonely; He has perfect love on His own. God created us to adopt us into His family as sons and daughters, and to perfect in the image of His Son.

In the world to come we will know God as He knows us now. We will see Him as He really is, face to face. He is creating the perfect reality, one that will last forever, and this is the proving ground. This is where creatures can freely choose to be a part of it or not. There is nothing in this world which isn't perishing. You came into this world empty and you are going to leave it the same way. To choose this world and its short term pleasures over eternal life with God is not thinking very clearly.

Oh, you poor deluded child. That is how Satan wants you to think. God wouldn't ask someone he loved to prove themselves to him. Can you imagine your mother saying to you "Pass this test or we are gonna kick you out"? Well, maybe you could.

Besides, why would god love us all? What have we done to deserve it? We are his creation, his little experiment, trying to come up with the perfect little thing. Something that is smart, rational and doesn't take any shit. Anyone someone comes close to that, they're let into heaven. The others are simply destroyed. Cease to exist. That's what's gonna happen to you fundies, you know? We atheists will go to heaven, while you guys will simply cease to be - how's that for irony.

This thread shows in high comic ways why xtians should not attempt to take their fairy tales on tour among the thinkers. The Satan foil has been just fantastic-and impossible to spoil.

(February 11, 2012 at 5:44 am)brotherlylove Wrote: Is it hard to understand that not knowing you have an enemy is more advantageous for an enemy than knowing that you do have one, even if you are uninformed about it? One of the greatest tricks Satan ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist.

That would be a great line if so many people weren't christian. Tell me, exactly how did Satan convince the world that he doesn't exist when a very large chunk of the world believes that he does..yourself included? What Satan obviously has done is to fudge the specifics in order to entrap you.

Quote:I'm only aware of it because God led me to the truth, which I have seen with my own eyes; that is, demon possession.

Actually, that writhing girl was possessed by god, trying to get a message through to you. Brilliant on Satan's part when you think about it, poisoning the well by convincing you that possessions were of demonic origin so that you would ignore the words of god when they were spoken.

Quote:I can't convince you of anything; it is a heart matter between you and God. I am here doing what the Lord wants me to do.

For something to be said to be between anything it must be bounded on at least two sides. Here I am, but unfortunately there is no god to border the other edge. So no, there's nothing between me and god. Just me, and then a vast stretch of emptiness beyond where your god is supposed to be. Maybe he took a lunch break?

Quote:If you hate God, you hate the source of all goodness and love. What is in your heart? Can you see how illogical it is to hate the one that made you and blessed you? You're saying even if you knew Jesus is God, you wouldn't be a Christian. Even though all the good things that you have in life came from Him. How ridiculous is that?

No, I don't hate goodness or love, or where they come from. I actually don't hate your god either, no more than I hate Aaron or any other villian. What I hate is the realization that people such as yourself are willing to smile with teeth bared and propose tyranny as love, vindictiveness as mercy, and ransom as a gift. Helpful little werewolves, each and every one of you.

Quote:It doesn't appear you are going to be honest about it anytime soon.

It doesn't appear that you're going to return to sanity anytime soon either, so I guess neither of us are going to get what we want today.

Quote:You think it is logical to believe that you just have a spirit and it didn't come from somewhere?

Where did your god spirit come from then, somewhere..right? My opinions have very little to do with what someone else believes.

Quote:What do you think His story is?

We're likely reading the same story. That you've decided to simply accept some things in the narrative that I have not is where we diverge.

Quote:So do you think the number of times you've violated the ten commandments is only in the low thousands then?

Probably about the same number as yourself. You know it's funny that you mention the ten commandments. My actions are as easily within the lines of those commandments as your own, even the ones that make specific mention of god (I'm hoping you'll just grant that I'm not a murderous, cheating, lying, thief btw). I don't have any gods before the judeo christian god (an amusing consequence of atheism) and I "keep" those commandments (as a consequence of simply being a decent person). You see, the trouble with god setting laws is that it becomes a contract, a sort of spiritual legal system. If god didn't wan't me gaming his laws he should have written them with more exacting or specific wording, because here I am, a godless heathen, and I can point to the contract at the pearly gates and say "Well, I don't care what you meant, this is what is written...now open up and get me a beer from the fridge okay sweetheart".

Speaking of violating imaginary commandments, I love violating a good (or bad) writhing girl, and I have all sorts of wonderful notions about expressions of possession that can actually be measured, such as handcuffs, manacles, chains, gags, etc. Who needs the fucked-up, boring, contrived religious claptrap when you can get on with being real?

Those who have been told the real deal is evil. Anytime you're having impure thoughts you can just read the bible and get your fix. All that rape and incest and homosexuality is in there for a reason after all...

(February 9, 2012 at 11:46 am)Rhythm Wrote: That's cool, we'll go with that definition, omnibenevolence is a desire (and not necessarily an action). Is there a desire that your god could not act upon? Is there some good that it wishes to do that for some reason it cannot? If yes, you see where we're headed....if no..then indifference or complacence, and you would not say that an omnibenevolent being is indifferent or complacent. I'm not even addressing malice as a cause, since omnibenevolence would seem to rule that out entirely.

Classic dilemma shit and all that, you know the drill.

I only have time for the short replies today.

Is there a desire that your god could not act upon? Simple answer no. I suppose for an arguemnts sake, we could assume that God could desire evil things. That would then negate Him being good by definition. Could He desire evil? No, evil is the opposite of His definition. God would then desire all good for everyone and nothing would be out of His power to stop that. I know that'll get all jumped all over so let's just get to the crux of it.

God desires only good for His creation.
God has the power to make everything good.
God created mankind in this scenario in the garden of Eden.
There was no death, sickness, disease, birth defect or physical lacking for needs that we're aware of in the Garden of Eden.

Perhaps you have a problem with the evil in society today, I claim it's not God made, but God allowed and man made. It could or might not be for our better good in the long run. If it is better for us to struggle and fight the evils of the world then the hypothesis that God is good is valid.


Bottom line, I see a lot of Evil in the world, as many of you do. I think neither one of us attribute it to God (you of course because you don't believe in God, and I because of the reasons stated). So I don't see why the Problem of Evil still exists since neither the atheist side, nor the theist side (in my case) claim that God isn't the cause of it.

(February 11, 2012 at 8:30 am)genkaus Wrote: Ofcourse you would. That's just plain common sense. But then, you fundies don't have a lot of that.

An unknown enemy is far more dangerous than a misunderstood enemy. To reveal yourself to the world in any form instead of remaining forever hidden is to give up your greatest advantage and is the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

(February 11, 2012 at 8:30 am)genkaus Wrote: Like I said, truth with lies. That's how Satan succeeds. Not all things the bible tells you are good works are actually good works. Like th ebible tells you that going and preaching the message of god is a "good work", its not. That's a ploy by Satan to make you waste your time.

That's what you're doing right now.

(February 11, 2012 at 8:30 am)genkaus Wrote: Mission Fucking Accomplished. This is exactly what Satan wanted you to think. God is just, then he wouldn't just give you a pardon in form of his "son". Why should he have to bear the responsibilities for your sins.

Because God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

(February 11, 2012 at 8:30 am)genkaus Wrote: Forgivness must be earned - Satan realized that and set about to deceive us all about how it could be earned. He came up with this wonderful story about how JC died for our sins and the pardon is simply out there - we just need to "accept it". Its brilliant. It plays at our greatest weakness - getting something for free. That's the bait and Satan's got you - hook, line and sinker. I mean come on, do you seriously believe that someone is going to give you "eternal happiness" just in exchange of believing in something? That's the greatest con job in the history.

Forgiveness can't be earned, that's the point. Our righteous deeds are filthy rags before a Holy God.

(February 11, 2012 at 8:30 am)genkaus Wrote: If there is a sin, it is the most heinous and corrupt of all mortal sins and the root of all others - the abdication of your mind and accepting something on faith.

The most heinous and corrupt sin is to reject Jesus Christ.

(February 11, 2012 at 8:30 am)genkaus Wrote: Oh, you poor deluded child. That is how Satan wants you to think. God wouldn't ask someone he loved to prove themselves to him. Can you imagine your mother saying to you "Pass this test or we are gonna kick you out"? Well, maybe you could.

It has nothing to do with proving yourself; on our own, no one can pass that test. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

(February 11, 2012 at 8:30 am)genkaus Wrote: Besides, why would god love us all? What have we done to deserve it? We are his creation, his little experiment, trying to come up with the perfect little thing. Something that is smart, rational and doesn't take any shit. Anyone someone comes close to that, they're let into heaven. The others are simply destroyed. Cease to exist. That's what's gonna happen to you fundies, you know? We atheists will go to heaven, while you guys will simply cease to be - how's that for irony.

We haven't done anything to deserve Gods love. It is because of the abundance of His love, and mercy, that we have the opportunity to repent and be forgiven.

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(February 11, 2012 at 8:54 am)Epimethean Wrote: This thread shows in high comic ways why xtians should not attempt to take their fairy tales on tour among the thinkers. The Satan foil has been just fantastic-and impossible to spoil.

It's based on the faulty premise that an unknown enemy is not more dangerous than a misunderstood enemy, which is patently false. It is not fantastic, it is simply ill-conceived.

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(February 11, 2012 at 11:03 am)Rhythm Wrote: That would be a great line if so many people weren't christian. Tell me, exactly how did Satan convince the world that he doesn't exist when a very large chunk of the world believes that he does..yourself included? What Satan obviously has done is to fudge the specifics in order to entrap you.

Over 50 percent of American Christians believe that Satan is merely a symbol for evil. The vast majority of the world does not believe that Satan exists.

(February 11, 2012 at 11:03 am)Rhythm Wrote: For something to be said to be between anything it must be bounded on at least two sides. Here I am, but unfortunately there is no god to border the other edge. So no, there's nothing between me and god. Just me, and then a vast stretch of emptiness beyond where your god is supposed to be. Maybe he took a lunch break?

God is upholding the atomic structure of your body at this very moment. If He took a lunch break everything would be destroyed.

(February 11, 2012 at 11:03 am)Rhythm Wrote: No, I don't hate goodness or love, or where they come from. I actually don't hate your god either, no more than I hate Aaron or any other villian. What I hate is the realization that people such as yourself are willing to smile with teeth bared and propose tyranny as love, vindictiveness as mercy, and ransom as a gift. Helpful little werewolves, each and every one of you.

What you hate is the idea of a supreme authority that will ultimately hold you accountable.

(February 11, 2012 at 11:03 am)Rhythm Wrote: Where did your god spirit come from then, somewhere..right? My opinions have very little to do with what someone else believes.

God is eternal, ie, He is and always was; ie, uncreated.

(February 11, 2012 at 11:03 am)Rhythm Wrote: We're likely reading the same story. That you've decided to simply accept some things in the narrative that I have not is where we diverge.

So what is your take on it?

(February 11, 2012 at 11:03 am)Rhythm Wrote: Probably about the same number as yourself. You know it's funny that you mention the ten commandments. My actions are as easily within the lines of those commandments as your own, even the ones that make specific mention of god (I'm hoping you'll just grant that I'm not a murderous, cheating, lying, thief btw). I don't have any gods before the judeo christian god (an amusing consequence of atheism) and I "keep" those commandments (as a consequence of simply being a decent person). You see, the trouble with god setting laws is that it becomes a contract, a sort of spiritual legal system. If god didn't wan't me gaming his laws he should have written them with more exacting or specific wording, because here I am, a godless heathen, and I can point to the contract at the pearly gates and say "Well, I don't care what you meant, this is what is written...now open up and get me a beer from the fridge okay sweetheart".

You are indeed violating the second commandment, and have more than a few false idols. Scientism and self would be two obvious ones. You claim human decency yet here you are making a sport out of mocking people; Is that something decent people do? I'll grant that you may be a *relatively* moral person in comparison to a Hitler, but in comparison to God you are deeply immoral, as we all are. As far as your example goes, God has made it clear what He expects of you. It obviously isn't something you are confused about.