(February 27, 2012 at 11:58 am)Shell B Wrote: yet it was still eradicated.

Smallpox was not eradicated. Eliminated from certain countries but not globally eradicated.

Meh, we like to call it eradicated. We worry about stores or outbreaks out in BFE or it's being brought in from elsewhere, but I would definitely go ahead and give us "eradicated". We worked hard for it..lol.

(February 27, 2012 at 12:09 pm)Phil Wrote: What if time. Your new neighbor moved in next door with his wife and three children. They just arrived from Somalia to pursue the American dream (boy are they in for a shock). Unknown to them, they were infected with smallpox before they left Somalia. Just greeting them gives you exposure and now you are in danger of contracting a full blown case of smallpox. You pass it on to the neighbor boy down the street that hasn't been vaccinated because he has Leukemia. The next day, a friend of yours has a minor car accident and is admitted to the hospital for a few days. You visit them in the hospital and are exposing many people to smallpox, a few of them get it and die. How do you feel about your choice not to vaccinate? Truth be told, if one of those you exposed to smallpox is a member of my family, you really would be better off dying of smallpox than letting me get my hands on you.

That would hardly be my fault. I do not have the option to be vaccinated for smallpox. Unless you are in the healthcare industry, are several years older than I am and/or served in the U.S. military, neither do you. Again, I would choose to take the vaccine. So, this is kind of a moot point. Sorry.

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(February 27, 2012 at 12:11 pm)Phil Wrote: Smallpox was not eradicated. Eliminated from certain countries but not globally eradicated.

Agreed.

(February 27, 2012 at 12:13 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Meh, we like to call it eradicated. We worry about stores or outbreaks out in BFE or it's being brought in from elsewhere, but I would definitely go ahead and give us "eradicated". We worked hard for it..lol.

Us meaning in the US, sure. Us as in the human race, nope. I wouldn't call Africa BFE, the world is a small place.

I did serve, I was vaccinated. Let's use me as an example of why it isn't an individual rights issue (as per the case I linked you). I go out into the third world, I get smallpox (in this hypothetical the vaccination is not mandatory, and smallpox has not been "eradicated"), I bring smallpox home (I wish it was more far fetched then it actually is), where we no longer vaccinate. Now, thankfully we have treatments, and anyone I'm likely to drag down with me...(say you..and your hypothetical kids) will probably receive excellent medical care and ultimately be just fine.

Or, we could mandate vaccinations and avoid the whole bit, maybe even "eradicate" an infectious disease (if we're super lucky).

Decisions decisions....

(February 27, 2012 at 12:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I did serve, I was vaccinated. Let's use me as an example of why it isn't an individual rights issue (as per the case I linked you). I go out into the third world, I get smallpox (in this hypothetical the vaccination is not mandatory, and smallpox has not been "eradicated"), I bring smallpox home (I wish it was more far fetched then it actually is), where we no longer vaccinate. Now, thankfully we have treatments, and anyone I'm likely to drag down with me...(say you..and your hypothetical kids) will probably receive excellent medical care and ultimately be just fine.

Or, we could mandate vaccinations and avoid the whole bit, maybe even "eradicate" an infectious disease (if we're super lucky).

Decisions decisions....

That is actually a poor example. Here's why. A servicemember is not part of the general population. You were given an informed decision. You chose to serve in the military, presumably knowing that you would be vaccinated for fucking everything. You were also presumably going where vaccinations are uncommon. You were not hanging out poolside in the U.S. with nary a virus in sight when some politician decided to vaccinate you anyway.

(February 27, 2012 at 12:13 pm)Shell B Wrote: Unless you are in the healthcare industry, are several years older than I am and/or served in the U.S. military, neither do you.

I am old so I already have been vaccinated against smallpox, never been in the military but what makes you think I am not in the healthcare industry?

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(February 27, 2012 at 12:23 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(February 27, 2012 at 12:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I did serve, I was vaccinated. Let's use me as an example of why it isn't an individual rights issue (as per the case I linked you). I go out into the third world, I get smallpox (in this hypothetical the vaccination is not mandatory, and smallpox has not been "eradicated"), I bring smallpox home (I wish it was more far fetched then it actually is), where we no longer vaccinate. Now, thankfully we have treatments, and anyone I'm likely to drag down with me...(say you..and your hypothetical kids) will probably receive excellent medical care and ultimately be just fine.

Or, we could mandate vaccinations and avoid the whole bit, maybe even "eradicate" an infectious disease (if we're super lucky).

Decisions decisions....

That is actually a poor example. Here's why. A servicemember is not part of the general population. You were given an informed decision. You chose to serve in the military, presumably knowing that you would be vaccinated for fucking everything. You were also presumably going where vaccinations are uncommon. You were not hanging out poolside in the U.S. with nary a virus in sight when some politician decided to vaccinate you anyway.

But he did return and was hanging out poolside chit chatting with you and Melanbee, she was vaccinated so not exposed. You got a full blown case of smallpox.

(February 27, 2012 at 12:23 pm)Shell B Wrote: That is actually a poor example. Here's why. A servicemember is not part of the general population. You were given an informed decision.

Um, lol, no. I was ordered to stand in line, just like everyone else, and then stuck in the arm with about 40 needles with nary a word spoken to me about what they were or what they did, and had I refused, I would have been discharged. It's mandatory, not up to my "informed decision" because no information was offered (in the interests of being completely open, there was a line to take a look at papers...which we were ordered to do, in about 5 seconds, before we were ordered into the line, Shell, they don't give a shit), and it didn't matter what I decided either way. You do it, period.

Quote:You chose to serve in the military, presumably knowing that you would be vaccinated for fucking everything.

You'd be surprised what soldiers don't know when they join the army, and how little the army gives a shit if soldiers don't know something.

Quote:You were also presumably going where vaccinations are uncommon.

You'd be hard pressed to find an area where smallpox vaccinations were uncommon, hence the "eradication" bit.

Quote:You were not hanging out poolside in the U.S. with nary a virus in sight when some politician decided to vaccinate you anyway.

Yeah, yeah I was, minus the pool, and before I was ever born.

Ignore me if I'm an idiot but..

I was thinking more education rather than anything else. If you show people good reasons why vaccines are safe and the risks (seems you cant rely on them to look themselves into it) and they then come to a conclusion on what they do or don't want. That way at least the decision is definitely informed rather than based on rumor and other BS.

(February 27, 2012 at 12:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Compulsory vaccination was an informed decision.

Yeah, that someone else made for other people. That's not necessarily informed.

Quote:By countries where it was, and by mimicing our policies even though we could not write their laws.

You'll have to cite an example of this. Not enforcing our policies or even mimicking them was a major setback. Again, in the wiki article you quoted.

Quote:Sure is, but we're talking about vaccinating against diseases you are likely to come into contact with, and why it just might be a good idea to enforce the mandatory vaccination statutes much more strictly.

Are we? You've been talking about smallpox. The chances of me coming into contact with it are slim, as with many other deadly viruses.

Quote:Care to be more specific?

You're arguing from a position of pimping vaccinations, so to speak. I have no problems with vaccinations, only with you making people take them.

Quote:No, Shell, I don't, because that's already been established, by the Supreme Court....in the link i just gave you..........

The Supreme Court established that the states have a right to establish their own legislation in the matter. The federal government has since recommended that the vaccine stop being administered to the general public. That was during an outbreak of proportions we do not see in the modern world. Don't say that is because of vaccinations because antibiotics, sanitization and travel policies are just as important and two of the three are not enforced on a population-wide basis.

Quote:Happiness, wtf? Again, already established, in the same place that the above was established.

See above.

Quote:Yes, we did, and I already gave you the link. The Supreme Court's (and subsequent State's) decisions in the matter, and the science that backs up those decisions aren't my will.

We're not arguing science, Rhythm. We're arguing whether people should be forced into having something injected into their bodies because someone else said so.

Quote:You're the one arguing for someones personal will here, not me. What's the deal, you can't argue the issue directly and so you'd rather argue about me imposing my will? Well make another thread.

I have been arguing the issue directly. You have been arguing against an anti-vaxxer who isn't here.

Quote:I thought we were discussing public health policy, vaccinations, and whether or not those exemptions we allow are a good idea.

I am arguing that. You are arguing that vaccinations are good. Established. Moving on.

[/quote]Care to elaborate upon the outbreak in Great Britain? What was the cause?
[/quote]

My apologies. The last one in Europe was in Yugoslavia, though there were several outbreaks in Britain after their mandatory vaccination policy was put in place.

I realize you probably want to reference the single case, as it would help your argument. However, a single case is not an outbreak.

Also from your source:

Quote:Australia and New Zealand are two notable exceptions; neither experienced endemic smallpox and never vaccinated widely, relying instead on protection by distance and strict quarantines.

What was that about developed countries?