(March 2, 2012 at 3:26 am)Godschild Wrote: God knowing what we will do has nothing to do with Him controlling what we do. A man knows that to commit murder means time in jail at the least, so he thinks about it, do I commit the crime or do I go on and live my life, either way it's his decision by his freewill.
As for the freewill God gives mankind, you have a choice to believe in Him or not, the rest of your life is in God's hands

You're failing to see my point. The ability to make a decision is not the same as free will. If "God" knows exactly what you're going to do in your lifetime, then you were always going to make the decisions you were going to make. From the day you were born, you were always going to end up exactly where you are right now. Yes you made decisions along the way, but from the moment you came into being it was predetermined that you were going to make those decisions. It was always going to happen. If it was always going to happen, how is that free will? If we had free will, in the true sense of the word, then God wouldn't have a clue what decisions we were going to make. Perhaps you might argue that God lives outside of time... and that's fine if you want to believe that, but in that case, from God's perspective you've already made every decision you're ever going to make. It's already been decided before you even get there. And don't retort with a bunch of decisions that you feel were your own. What I'm trying to tell you, in essence, is that making decisions and free will are not the same thing!

One need not control your decisions to eliminate the possibility of free will, they need only know what you will do before you do it. If it is predestined, and if that predestination is accurate (regardless of who or what is aware of it), then the particulars of your decisions are already set. A human precog (with no other abilities) would rule out free will, no omni-[whatever] god required.

(March 2, 2012 at 8:58 am)Rhythm Wrote: One need not control your decisions to eliminate the possibility of free will, they need only know what you will do before you do it. If it is predestined, and if that predestination is accurate (regardless of who or what is aware of it), then the particulars of your decisions are already set. A human precog (with no other abilities) would rule out free will, no omni-[whatever] god required.

My point, said with much more finesse! Thank you

Meh, np, just repeating a discussion I'm pretty sure I've already had on these forums (very nearly verbatim). You'll never be able to explain to a believer that free will combined with predestination is a non-starter. They simply can't accept this to be the case because they have pinned their hopes on a god who loves them, and pinned their own sick fantasies on the idea of free will as a means for determining who is damned and who is not. If there is no free will their god is malevolent. If there is free will their god is not omniscient. It isn't exactly surprising that people with very little in the way of knowledge could conceive of such a deity, but it is unthinkable to their minds today, far removed from such a blanket of ignorance except for those moments when they willingly cover their own eyes with the same. They can't decide if they like the idea of a know it all god better than a capricious torturer of a god, so they throw their chips in with both.

(March 2, 2012 at 9:10 am)Rhythm Wrote: Meh, np, just repeating a discussion I'm pretty sure I've already had on these forums (very nearly verbatim). You'll never be able to explain to a believer that free will combined with predestination is a non-starter. They simply can't accept this to be the case because they have pinned their hopes on a god who loves them, and pinned their own sick fantasies on the idea of free will as a means for determining who is damned and who is not. If there is no free will their god is malevolent. If there is free will their god is not omniscient. It isn't exactly surprising that people with very little in the way of knowledge could conceive of such a deity, but it is unthinkable to their minds today, far removed from such a blanket of ignorance except for those moments when they willingly cover their own eyes with the same. They can't decide if they like the idea of a know it all god better than a capricious torturer of a god.

You're absolutely right. It astounds me how much ones desire for something to be true will cause even the most logical of thinkers (as I gather Godschild is based on what he says) to simply turn a blind eye to reason, philosophically or otherwise.

(March 2, 2012 at 3:26 am)Godschild Wrote: person runs into a burning building to save another's life and dies trying, that decision has nothing to do with genes, it is a selfless act of love that many do not possess, yet it is a decision made of one's own freewill.

Selfless, sure. But an act of love? Really?

Love is a highly selfish emotion that results when one values an object or a person above everything else. "Loving" everything and everyone is not a noble concept, it the corruption of the noble concept of love.

If the person being saved is a stranger (or someone irrelevant), then it is not an act of love. If the person being saved is a loved one, then it is not a selfless act.

Flobee, I posted about freewill on a concurrent thread, so I won't repeat myself here. But the gist of my post is that freewill does not depend on a theistic god not does it exclude one. The existence or non-existence of deity is irrelevant. One of the posters about had it right, the concept of freewill revolves around the consciousness of the personal existent and if that consciousness is contingent upon external forces.

Pleased to meet you by the way.

The scientific existence of freewill depends largely on Heisenberg's principal.... but in turn Heisenberg's principal gives credence to the idea of "something from nothing" which gives credence to the idea of a universe w/o an initial cause. Either way, Heisenberg's principal is a fact at this point, and therefore freewill remains possible... but by its very nature, we must now allow for the creation of something from the hypothetical "nothing" due to the very same principal that gives us the possibility of freewill.

(March 2, 2012 at 8:13 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The existence or non-existence of deity is irrelevant.

Care to start a list as to what issues god's existence is irrelevant with regards too? I'd be willing to bet it's a long one. When you're done, and we have in our hands what is left, we'll talk about how powerful, useful, or relevant this god is.

(March 2, 2012 at 8:53 am)picto90 Wrote:

(March 2, 2012 at 3:26 am)Godschild Wrote: God knowing what we will do has nothing to do with Him controlling what we do. A man knows that to commit murder means time in jail at the least, so he thinks about it, do I commit the crime or do I go on and live my life, either way it's his decision by his freewill.
As for the freewill God gives mankind, you have a choice to believe in Him or not, the rest of your life is in God's hands

You're failing to see my point. The ability to make a decision is not the same as free will. If "God" knows exactly what you're going to do in your lifetime, then you were always going to make the decisions you were going to make. From the day you were born, you were always going to end up exactly where you are right now. Yes you made decisions along the way, but from the moment you came into being it was predetermined that you were going to make those decisions. It was always going to happen. If it was always going to happen, how is that free will? If we had free will, in the true sense of the word, then God wouldn't have a clue what decisions we were going to make. Perhaps you might argue that God lives outside of time... and that's fine if you want to believe that, but in that case, from God's perspective you've already made every decision you're ever going to make. It's already been decided before you even get there. And don't retort with a bunch of decisions that you feel were your own. What I'm trying to tell you, in essence, is that making decisions and free will are not the same thing!

Who predetermined it? Not me or you, nor God, He saw what was to be, but had nothing to do with my decision. So how is my decision anything but freewill?

---

(March 2, 2012 at 9:30 am)genkaus Wrote:

(March 2, 2012 at 3:26 am)Godschild Wrote: person runs into a burning building to save another's life and dies trying, that decision has nothing to do with genes, it is a selfless act of love that many do not possess, yet it is a decision made of one's own freewill.

Selfless, sure. But an act of love? Really?

Love is a highly selfish emotion that results when one values an object or a person above everything else. "Loving" everything and everyone is not a noble concept, it the corruption of the noble concept of love.

If the person being saved is a stranger (or someone irrelevant), then it is not an act of love. If the person being saved is a loved one, then it is not a selfless act.

Love selfish really, you must not be married, are you close to family?