(August 10, 2009 at 7:07 pm)dry land fish Wrote: Legalize it. It's not as harmful as alcohol and can be compared to cigarettes. I've smoked pot for years and I run a lot, have never had brochitis or any other lung problems. I don't know any tobacco smokers that could run one lap around their house without falling over.

I don't agree ... from personal experience I already know what it does to my mind when driving (and I seriously doubt I'm that much different to anyone else). I think it should be made legal as a drug for those who needs it (under Doctor's advice).

Kyu

Kyu, your argument isn't really a valid one. Drinking while stoned is dangerous, yes. So is driving while drunk, and alcohol is still legal. It's against the law to drive dangerously regardless of what substances you've consumed.

(August 11, 2009 at 5:01 am)Giff Wrote: Also cannabis have the bad side affect, to men, that it make the sperm quality worse and other sexual disdvantages.

Source?

There's no good reason to maintain the double-standard that marijuana is bad and should be illegal and alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine products are alright and deserve to be legal. I challenge any of you to think of one argument that preserves the concept of personal responsibility and isn't closed-minded horseshit.

Bottom line: It's against the law for me to grow a specific plant in my home, for personal use, behind closed doors, affecting nobody but myself, and for only a few hours. That's just so fundamentally wrong it boils my blood.

Jeez Kyu. That was a silent fart post if I ever saw one.

Why do people think that legalizing Marijuana will also mean that driving while high is legal? No responsibe user drives while stoned and I've never heard anyone who is anti prohabition to even suggest that we should be driving while stoned.

Why did you do something so foolish as to drive while stoned? Pot helps me with period cramps, headaches, and upset stomach due to vertigo. I've gotten vertigo since I was a child. Why should I pay for a doctor to give me RX drugs for those? I can get treatments OTC for them except that they are man made synthetic drugs and I have no idea who handled them. With pot I know where it's coming from, who has touched it, that no pesticides have been used on the plant, and I know it's safe. I don't need a doctor to prescribe me drugs for things I can fix myself. There's no reason anyone should go to jail for smoking Marijuana.

(August 11, 2009 at 10:49 pm)dry land fish Wrote: No responsibe user drives while stoned and I've never heard anyone who is anti prohabition to even suggest that we should be driving while stoned.

However, you know it has happened and it will happen should MJ become legal. That is why early on in the thread I already stated that we need a proper way of testing for MJ in the same way alcohol can be tested during routine traffic stops before legalisation. And if you look in the thread there are even people here that claim to drive better when they have used Cannabis.

I smoke weed all the time, It's great.

Don't talk to me about that shit being dangerous when you fuckers are all driving cars. Last time i checked:

Car Fatalities: 1.2 Million Per Anum
Cannabis: FUCKING ZERO

And they wanna lecture us about danger? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_peopl..._worldwide

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(August 12, 2009 at 2:33 am)leo-rcc Wrote:

(August 11, 2009 at 10:49 pm)dry land fish Wrote: No responsibe user drives while stoned and I've never heard anyone who is anti prohabition to even suggest that we should be driving while stoned.

However, you know it has happened and it will happen should MJ become legal. That is why early on in the thread I already stated that we need a proper way of testing for MJ in the same way alcohol can be tested during routine traffic stops before legalisation. And if you look in the thread there are even people here that claim to drive better when they have used Cannabis.

There are breath testers that can pick up particulate Cannabis, New Zealand police have them.

That being said, my mates drive stoned constantly, don't recall any of them being in a single pot-related car crash in the last 5 years.

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(August 11, 2009 at 5:56 pm)Meatball Wrote: Kyu, your argument isn't really a valid one. Drinking while stoned is dangerous, yes. So is driving while drunk, and alcohol is still legal. It's against the law to drive dangerously regardless of what substances you've consumed.

(August 11, 2009 at 5:01 am)Giff Wrote: Also cannabis have the bad side affect, to men, that it make the sperm quality worse and other sexual disdvantages.

Source?

There's no good reason to maintain the double-standard that marijuana is bad and should be illegal and alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine products are alright and deserve to be legal. I challenge any of you to think of one argument that preserves the concept of personal responsibility and isn't closed-minded horseshit.

Bottom line: It's against the law for me to grow a specific plant in my home, for personal use, behind closed doors, affecting nobody but myself, and for only a few hours. That's just so fundamentally wrong it boils my blood.

How's this for a plan:

GOVERNMENT STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MY LIFE, I PAY YOU TAXES FOR SERVICES, NOT SO YOU CAN DECIDE MY LIFESTYLE

(August 12, 2009 at 4:49 am)theVOID Wrote: I smoke weed all the time, It's great.

Don't talk to me about that shit being dangerous when you fuckers are all driving cars. Last time i checked:

Car Fatalities: 1.2 Million Per Anum
Cannabis: FUCKING ZERO

The results are only one part of the equation. How did they test this? What is the sample size? Where are these published?

(August 11, 2009 at 10:49 pm)dry land fish Wrote: There are breath testers that can pick up particulate Cannabis, New Zealand police have them.

I did not know that. What are the limits set on these devices?

(August 11, 2009 at 10:49 pm)dry land fish Wrote: That being said, my mates drive stoned constantly, don't recall any of them being in a single pot-related car crash in the last 5 years.

People can drive drunk for decades and not get in an accident, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

(August 12, 2009 at 5:37 am)leo-rcc Wrote:

(August 12, 2009 at 4:49 am)theVOID Wrote: I smoke weed all the time, It's great.

Don't talk to me about that shit being dangerous when you fuckers are all driving cars. Last time i checked:

Car Fatalities: 1.2 Million Per Anum
Cannabis: FUCKING ZERO

The results are only one part of the equation. How did they test this? What is the sample size? Where are these published?

The 1.2 million figure was released by the WHO, and yes, it is an estimate. I had a hunt for the statistics for your interest, didn't find the specific 1999 WHO press release i was after (which i knew about due to a previous debate on the topic) But i did find the following:

The total worldwide historical number of car accident fatalities is difficult to estimate. Figures around 17 million have been suggested[37] in 1991, and would have to be significantly higher now, making car driving one of the deadliest undertakings in the history of mankind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_col...statistics

Highway fatalities account for more than 94% of all transportation deaths. There were an estimated 6,289,000 car accidents in the US in 1999. There were about 3.4 million injuries and 41,611 people killed in auto accidents in 1999

http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000)

"An exhaustive search of the literature finds no credible reports of deaths induced by marijuana"

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/viewa...nID=000231

Yeah, potentially biased sources, but extensive trolling through google found nothing more credible.

(August 11, 2009 at 10:49 pm)dry land fish Wrote: There are breath testers that can pick up particulate Cannabis, New Zealand police have them.

I did not know that. What are the limits set on these devices?
[/quote]

Don't know the specifics, there was a news article here late 07'- early 08' but i can't find it for looking.

Scratch that, i can't find anything worthwhile regarding police use in NZ, perhaps it hasn't happened yet or isn't happening. My bad.

(August 11, 2009 at 10:49 pm)dry land fish Wrote: That being said, my mates drive stoned constantly, don't recall any of them being in a single pot-related car crash in the last 5 years.

People can drive drunk for decades and not get in an accident, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
[/quote]

Sober people crash too, it's all about ratio, which i am assuming in alcohol is considerably higher. Since i haven't seen any statistics on driving under the influence of THC i will assume neutrality for the time being.

(August 11, 2009 at 5:56 pm)Meatball Wrote: Kyu, your argument isn't really a valid one. Drinking while stoned is dangerous, yes. So is driving while drunk, and alcohol is still legal. It's against the law to drive dangerously regardless of what substances you've consumed.

Of course it's valid ... cannabis should be classified as AT LEAST as dangerous as alcohol and, given that it is usually (in my experience ... something I stress because I have no personal objection to it) used with tobacco (a carcinogen) carries greater risk.

My concern is that there is no easy way, such as a breathalyser, to9 tell if someone is under the influence.

Kyu

(August 12, 2009 at 4:49 am)theVOID Wrote: How's this for a plan:

GOVERNMENT STAY THE FUCK OUT OF MY LIFE, I PAY YOU TAXES FOR SERVICES, NOT SO YOU CAN DECIDE MY LIFESTYLE

Spoken like a true Libertarian.

I salute you sir!

Libertarianism FTW!