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(April 12, 2012 at 9:21 pm)Thomas Kelly Wrote: It's true that we don't know how exactly the brain works, but decision making is basically weighing the options in relation any giving thing, and to self. Free will would mean that you are not bound to the limited options available. Hence the emphasis on "free".. As in not limited or bound.. Now regarding decision making, can you make a choice on a fork in the road you have no knowledge of. How do you cognitively choose left or right if you have no information that left or right exists, or what left or right would mean to you in terms of choice. Hence, it's pretty hard to choose a path cognitively without any information on what it is you are supposed to make a cognitive choice on.
We are limited both in our physiology and mental capacity. This narrows down the margin of "free-will". That margin further decreases with "circumstance" and "genetics". Then theres various other factors that contribute from what food you eat to what air you breathe. All of these have some small effect on us. If some type of genius were to accurately record *all* factors and comprehend their effect then it is possible they would be able to calculate what decision you would make in any given situation. Is that an indicator of free-will?
As it stands we have scant information at best about how we actually form our decisions. Without that information you cannot possibly make a statement backing free-will with any weight behind it.
April 13, 2012 at 1:22 am (This post was last modified: April 13, 2012 at 1:34 am by TheJackel.)
(April 13, 2012 at 1:12 am)RaphielDrake Wrote:
(April 12, 2012 at 9:21 pm)Thomas Kelly Wrote: It's true that we don't know how exactly the brain works, but decision making is basically weighing the options in relation any giving thing, and to self. Free will would mean that you are not bound to the limited options available. Hence the emphasis on "free".. As in not limited or bound.. Now regarding decision making, can you make a choice on a fork in the road you have no knowledge of. How do you cognitively choose left or right if you have no information that left or right exists, or what left or right would mean to you in terms of choice. Hence, it's pretty hard to choose a path cognitively without any information on what it is you are supposed to make a cognitive choice on.
We are limited both in our physiology and mental capacity. This narrows down the margin of "free-will". That margin further decreases with "circumstance" and "genetics". Then theres various other factors that contribute from what food you eat to what air you breathe. All of these have some small effect on us. If some type of genius were to accurately record *all* factors and comprehend their effect then it is possible they would be able to calculate what decision you would make in any given situation. Is that an indicator of free-will?
As it stands we have scant information at best about how we actually form our decisions. Without that information you cannot possibly make a statement backing free-will with any weight behind it.
It might be an indicator, but not a validation of. A validation would be a being completely unbound to any limits, constraints, rules, or path ways of any kind... This of course being impossible... So free will in the literal context is a logical fallacy, and what we perceive to be free will is a placebo within a limited box that gives us some sort limited movement or ability. Think of it like TrackIR to where you are limited to 6 degrees of movement. It would be more accurate to call it governed and limited freedom to where "freedom" is a kind of placebo.
Another example is this:
Quote:Can an omniscient entity know how to create knowledge to which it does not already know?
So if something is infinitely knowledgeable and infinitely knows everything that can ever infinitely ever be known, how can it create knowledge it doesn't already know, or how can there be knowledge it doesn't know about?.. As you can see, free will, and the ability to do things can never actually be unlimited, or without restraints or constraints. It's like asking if you can exist without requiring existence to exist.. Well no you can't And btw, this also proves why there is no such possible thing as an uncased GOD, or some being theists would like to claim magically exists without cause.. So can ask a theist the toughest question you could ever ask them:
Quote:What is GOD without existence???
Then you can watch them pull their hair out, or cry about how their GOD requires the Pantheist GOD just to exist as the fictional fairy tale it is.
(April 13, 2012 at 1:12 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: We are limited both in our physiology and mental capacity. This narrows down the margin of "free-will". That margin further decreases with "circumstance" and "genetics". Then theres various other factors that contribute from what food you eat to what air you breathe. All of these have some small effect on us. If some type of genius were to accurately record *all* factors and comprehend their effect then it is possible they would be able to calculate what decision you would make in any given situation. Is that an indicator of free-will?
As it stands we have scant information at best about how we actually form our decisions. Without that information you cannot possibly make a statement backing free-will with any weight behind it.
RaphielDrake.
I guess I didn't post the opinions you contributed to.
(April 12, 2012 at 9:21 pm)Thomas Kelly Wrote: RaphielDrake.
I guess I didn't post the opinions you contributed to.
Also I guess looked at your opinions. Thats all.[/size][/font]
A slave can have an opinion... it makes little difference to his free will however.
Oh and please stop making your writing large, its slightly irritating.
Quote:A slave can have an opinion... it makes little difference to his free will however.
Oh and please stop making your writing large, its slightly irritating.
As a former theist, I can tell you why they use lots of spaces and large txts ect. It's usually a habit from when it's used to spam a discussion to drown out other posts and fill out the boards knowing that a lot of people tend to only go so far into reading a particular thread or post.. And it's used to make them selves sound more confident and like the loudest speaker in the room. Lots of forums ban people for it.
Thomas Kelly Wrote:I guess I am limited also it is right.
May be we will discuss more.
Hulk smash!
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
(April 12, 2012 at 9:15 pm)TheJackel Wrote: On free will, I only need ask a few questions to the theists on that subject:
1. Do I have the free will to be GOD?
2. And if not to question 1, do I really have "free" will?
3. Would free will not be without constraints, limits, or boundaries?
So for the theists here that claim we have free will, I sure hope you can answer those questions for me.
May be later.
What kind of answer is "Maybe later" ? That's doesn't address anything.
I guess you deserved an answer apart from me not wanting to tell my opinions at the time.
Now I am going to assume this as some sort of protest of free will. But I apologize in advance if this assumption is wrong. So I am just going to use it for example purposes. And under example purposes only, this reply, if assumed to be a protest of free will, only shows available options you have to choose from, or only shows what you can, or what is possible for you to do. It doesn't answer the question of "free" will in the literal context. As in will without any constraints, or limits to options.. You could say you freely chose to not answer those questions at this time, but in reality it's just one possible available option you have to weigh and choose from. So you can choose to answer or not answer as it will be either one regardless of choices available.
You are thus still in a cage limited to what options you have to choose from. True free will will not have any limits what-so-ever to which would expand the entire spectrum of possibility right into impossibility as possible possibilities.
Do you have the free will to do anything you want, or are you bound to rules that prevent you from doing anything you want? So basically I see practical limited will to choose between available options within the limits of your ability.
(April 13, 2012 at 12:02 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: Any argument for or against freewill would be an argument from ignorance as even our best scientists are unable to discern the majority of factors that fit into our decision making.
Any argument that an all-knowing, all powerful omnipotent being gave us freewill would be inherently flawed for reasons so painfully obvious that I wouldn't expect to have to explain them to "kindergarten".
Although I would suggest to people who adamantly defend the idea they have complete control and freewill to youtube Derren Brown for the next hour and a half and prepare to have their world rocked.
It's true that we don't know how exactly the brain works, but decision making is basically weighing the options in relation any giving thing, and to self. Free will would mean that you are not bound to the limited options available. Hence the emphasis on "free".. As in not limited or bound.. Now regarding decision making, can you make a choice on a fork in the road you have no knowledge of. How do you cognitively choose left or right if you have no information that left or right exists, or what left or right would mean to you in terms of choice. Hence, it's pretty hard to choose a path cognitively without any information on what it is you are supposed to make a cognitive choice on. And this gets also gets into another issue about a true choice vs an educated guess. A true choice involves being omniscient of any choice or path option to which includes any infinite consequences that might arise from that choice.. (butterfly effect).. A educated guesses are essentially what most choices are.
Example:
Quote:If you had met Hitler when is was a newborn, would you have killed him knowing he would have committed genocide of the Jews? And if you had, would you have killed him not knowing what would happen if you do? ..Hence the result could lead to something far worse...
This called chaos theory in relation to the butterfly effect. It goes to show that choices for the most part are nothing more than educated guesses that can often be wrong, and also many times turn out right.
Quote:1. No, Lucifer tried that, you see where that's gotten him.
2. You have freewill to chose God's absolute grace or not to. After that it all depends on God's will.
3. Except for your choice for salvation your freewill has limits, boundaries and constraints. They were put on Lucifer after his fall, why should we be any different.
First off, you might want to read this concerning "Lucifer"... as it's usually a good idea to know what you are talking about in regards to it before using it:
2ndly, your reply verifies lack of free will supposedly gifted upon you by your supposed to be GOD. GOD saying love him or burn isn't free will, it's an ultimatum via threat.. If I had the freedom to choose, I could do anything regardless of what your GOD says, demands, or threatens without any sort or consequence.. And giving your answer, you have reduced your self to the role of puppet to serve the Narcissism and EGO of another. This to which really makes your existence pointless.. So logically speaking, your GOD should just have created yes GOD robots vs going through all this other pointless nonsense. This thus exposes how intellectually inept this deity of yours is. Basically if you have to threaten and demand people love you, you have serious issues and problems to deal with. And from a GOD stand point, that is pretty pathetic don't ya think? And that brings us to another question:
What is a GOD if not worshiped as such?
Yes the power of relative opinion reduces the GOD concept to nothing more than pure opinion and title of opinion. This to where anything and everything could be considered as GODS, to where either all things are GODS, or to where there are no such things as GODs at all. Some people worship the cow, or see it as a divine creature. I see a cow as a potentially delicious burger on a bun with saute onions, bacon, ketchup, pickles, and lettuce. Perhaps with a side of fries too. So you may as well be worshiping the dust bunny on my desk.
If you do not worship God it does not lessen Him at all, God does not need your worship to be God, He could destroy everything that has ever existed and still be God. Compared to God you are no more than that dust bunny on your desk.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(April 13, 2012 at 6:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: If you do not worship God it does not lessen Him at all, God does not need your worship to be God, He could destroy everything that has ever existed and still be God. Compared to God you are no more than that dust bunny on your desk.
Then why does he seek it so desperately? Why is he so desperate to be acknowledged as existing and worshiped and loved? Why is he so insistent on us doing as he wants upon the pain and penalty of eternal torture if our actions matter so little to him?
(April 13, 2012 at 6:20 pm)Godschild Wrote: If you do not worship God it does not lessen Him at all, God does not need your worship to be God
This is complete rubbish and you know it. His only reason for being is to be worshipped and believed in.
Quote: He could destroy everything that has ever existed and still be God. Compared to God you are no more than that dust bunny on your desk.
Yeah, whatever man, we've heard this kind of stuff before. First of all, show god to be more than a figment of your ridiculous imagination, then and only then, shall wel talk about how people compare to her.
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
April 14, 2012 at 1:40 am (This post was last modified: April 14, 2012 at 1:43 am by TheJackel.)
Quote:If you do not worship God it does not lessen Him at all, God does not need your worship to be God, He could destroy everything that has ever existed and still be God. Compared to God you are no more than that dust bunny on your desk.
What is a GOD that isn't considered as such? Here is some fun, I am GOD and it's irrelevant if you worship Norfolk as such as it will not diminish the fact Norfolk is GOD.. Aka Solipsism.
Quote: Compared to God you are no more than that dust bunny on your desk.
Compared to existence itself, the Pantheist god, your god is nothing but a dust bunny on it's desk.. Or compared to solipsism for that matter where all of you could be nothing other than a figment of Norfolk's imagination generated by his own mind.
And btw, this also proves why there is no such possible thing as an uncased GOD, or some being theists would like to claim magically exists without cause.. So can ask a theist the toughest question you could ever ask them:
