(April 28, 2012 at 10:58 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(April 28, 2012 at 3:37 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(April 27, 2012 at 11:03 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Let me get something straight. What is a true Christian? Someone that does good works, believes in the Son of God, goes to church every sunday, loves on everyone, is born again (well depending on your denomination), believes in the trinity (depending on you denomination)?

A person who accepts Christ as their savior, believing He was born of a virgin, lived a perfect (sinless) life, was crucified for our sins and raised from the dead and sets at the right hand of the Father. A lot of the rest is opinion. One should be baptized, but this is not a requirement, the thief on the cross is proof of this.

You just described my former beliefs. I must have been a Christian then.

Nope. You probably imagined Christ on the left hand of the father or probably thought it was his wrists and not his hands that were nailed. These are are important facts. Hell awaits thee

(April 28, 2012 at 10:58 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(April 28, 2012 at 3:37 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(April 27, 2012 at 11:03 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Let me get something straight. What is a true Christian? Someone that does good works, believes in the Son of God, goes to church every sunday, loves on everyone, is born again (well depending on your denomination), believes in the trinity (depending on you denomination)?

A person who accepts Christ as their savior, believing He was born of a virgin, lived a perfect (sinless) life, was crucified for our sins and raised from the dead and sets at the right hand of the Father. A lot of the rest is opinion. One should be baptized, but this is not a requirement, the thief on the cross is proof of this.

You just described my former beliefs. I must have been a Christian then.

Not if you do not still believe He is who He said He was. If you still believe He is the savoir and have rejected Him, then yes, I believe you were a Christian.

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(April 28, 2012 at 11:08 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(April 28, 2012 at 10:58 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(April 28, 2012 at 3:37 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(April 27, 2012 at 11:03 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Let me get something straight. What is a true Christian? Someone that does good works, believes in the Son of God, goes to church every sunday, loves on everyone, is born again (well depending on your denomination), believes in the trinity (depending on you denomination)?

A person who accepts Christ as their savior, believing He was born of a virgin, lived a perfect (sinless) life, was crucified for our sins and raised from the dead and sets at the right hand of the Father. A lot of the rest is opinion. One should be baptized, but this is not a requirement, the thief on the cross is proof of this.

You just described my former beliefs. I must have been a Christian then.

Nope. You probably imagined Christ on the left hand of the father or probably thought it was his wrists and not his hands that were nailed. These are are important facts. Hell awaits thee

You've been in space to long, either that or you're crazy.

(April 29, 2012 at 12:06 am)Godschild Wrote: You've been in space to long, either that or you're crazy.

I'm just humorously pointing out how arbitrary some of your requirements to be saved are. I doubt, supposing the Gospels are true, that the thief on the cross believed every one of those things.

(April 29, 2012 at 12:14 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 12:06 am)Godschild Wrote: You've been in space to long, either that or you're crazy.

I'm just humorously pointing out how arbitrary some of your requirements to be saved are. I doubt, supposing the Gospels are true, that the thief on the cross believed every one of those things.

We know that he believed that Christ was the Son of God, we know he knew that Christ would and did die on the cross, and that he would rise from the grave and go to be with the Father and sit on the throne in His kingdom. I would say that the story of the virgin birth was well known, and that he had heard it.

(April 29, 2012 at 12:41 am)Godschild Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 12:14 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 12:06 am)Godschild Wrote: You've been in space to long, either that or you're crazy.

I'm just humorously pointing out how arbitrary some of your requirements to be saved are. I doubt, supposing the Gospels are true, that the thief on the cross believed every one of those things.

We know that he believed that Christ was the Son of God, we know he knew that Christ would and did die on the cross, and that he would rise from the grave and go to be with the Father and sit on the throne in His kingdom. I would say that the story of the virgin birth was well known, and that he had heard it.

Perhaps you're right, but where can you find in the Bible that it was common knowledge that Christ was born a virgin? Where do you find the thief saying that Christ would have a bodily resurrection?

Quote:39 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." 40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

(April 29, 2012 at 12:48 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 12:41 am)Godschild Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 12:14 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 12:06 am)Godschild Wrote: You've been in space to long, either that or you're crazy.

I'm just humorously pointing out how arbitrary some of your requirements to be saved are. I doubt, supposing the Gospels are true, that the thief on the cross believed every one of those things.

We know that he believed that Christ was the Son of God, we know he knew that Christ would and did die on the cross, and that he would rise from the grave and go to be with the Father and sit on the throne in His kingdom. I would say that the story of the virgin birth was well known, and that he had heard it.

Perhaps you're right, but where can you find in the Bible that it was common knowledge that Christ was born a virgin? Where do you find the thief saying that Christ would have a bodily resurrection?

Quote:39 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." 40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

He referred to Him as God (remember me when You come into "your" kingdom), in that he knew that anything was possible (referring to the resurrection). Knowing about the virgin birth is an opinion, I do see it being this way though, if He did not know of the virgin birth that would not be held against him. You brought up knowledge in the other post, and this would be an argument for not having had full knowledge. Let me ask you a question and there is no need to reply, have you ever considered the other thief and what he said, I mean really giving a deeper thought to his statement and what it says?

(April 29, 2012 at 1:15 am)Godschild Wrote: ...

He referred to Him as God (remember me when You come into "your" kingdom), in that he knew that anything was possible (referring to the resurrection). Knowing about the virgin birth is an opinion, I do see it being this way though, if He did not know of the virgin birth that would not be held against him. You brought up knowledge in the other post, and this would be an argument for not having had full knowledge. Let me ask you a question and there is no need to reply, have you ever considered the other thief and what he said, I mean really giving a deeper thought to his statement and what it says?

I didn't say he didn't believe he was God. I'm just showing an exception to your little formula.

As for the other thief, he seems to have doubted that Jesus was the messiah. From my point of view, Jesus should have shown he was the messiah to the guy.

(April 29, 2012 at 1:26 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 1:15 am)Godschild Wrote: ...

He referred to Him as God (remember me when You come into "your" kingdom), in that he knew that anything was possible (referring to the resurrection). Knowing about the virgin birth is an opinion, I do see it being this way though, if He did not know of the virgin birth that would not be held against him. You brought up knowledge in the other post, and this would be an argument for not having had full knowledge. Let me ask you a question and there is no need to reply, have you ever considered the other thief and what he said, I mean really giving a deeper thought to his statement and what it says?

I didn't say he didn't believe he was God. I'm just showing an exception to your little formula.

As for the other thief, he seems to have doubted that Jesus was the messiah. From my point of view, Jesus should have shown he was the messiah to the guy.

He did, the other thief recognized it. Now why didn't the other thief? The only exception could be the virgin birth.

(April 29, 2012 at 1:37 am)Godschild Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 1:26 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(April 29, 2012 at 1:15 am)Godschild Wrote: ...

He referred to Him as God (remember me when You come into "your" kingdom), in that he knew that anything was possible (referring to the resurrection). Knowing about the virgin birth is an opinion, I do see it being this way though, if He did not know of the virgin birth that would not be held against him. You brought up knowledge in the other post, and this would be an argument for not having had full knowledge. Let me ask you a question and there is no need to reply, have you ever considered the other thief and what he said, I mean really giving a deeper thought to his statement and what it says?

I didn't say he didn't believe he was God. I'm just showing an exception to your little formula.

As for the other thief, he seems to have doubted that Jesus was the messiah. From my point of view, Jesus should have shown he was the messiah to the guy.

He did, the other thief recognized it. Now why didn't the other thief?

Problem isn't why the thief didn't believe (it doesn't say why anyway). It's why Jesus didn't attempt to explain to him why he's wrong and perhaps get him to believe. Jesus is a hypocrite here because he just lets the guy die in unbelief. He doesn't go "hey buddy, you're wrong. I am the messiah. This blood I'm spilling, it's for your sins. And I'm the messiah because I fulfill this OT prophecy, and this OT prophecy, and performed all those miracles. In fact, here's another miracle for you if you don't believe me. *turns Roman solider into goat*"

(April 25, 2012 at 2:17 am)FallentoReason Wrote: But now you know that I was a reborn Christian, so if you were to say from now on that I didn't know how to do it or I wasn't doing it right then I think that falls under the No True Scotsman fallacy because you're excluding me from 'true Christians'.

Again you do not understand the fallacy. The fallacy points to not having a structure that defines a Scotsman.

Christianity have a very narrow structure that defines a follower of Christ. Christ Himself points out that just because you label yourself a christian or follower, does not make you one. Even if you do great works. If you still wish to default to the no true scotsman in this arguement take it up with Christ.

Quote:James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Apparently to show you have faith you still need to do works.

Indeed but what Christ and James are saying is; it is not works in of themselves. It is the Faith that manifests through works. When you have the faith required then you can not help yourself from doing these works. Not the other way around. In that you do works and you are rewarded from them. That is a muslim principle.