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We hear all the time that this country (the USA) was founded as a Christian nation by Christian men. And while there are Judea-Christian standards here and there throughout our various historical documents, this country's government was meant to be free of Christian influence.
An interesting document to read is the The Barbary Treaties, signed in 1796 and ratified by the US Senate and President John Adams ... a mere 20 years after the country was declared independent. Easily considered founding fathers since the Barbary Treaties were initiated in 1786.
Something worthy of noting, and kind of the point of this thread, is Article 11. I'll let you read it for yourself.
Treaties Wrote:
Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796 (3 Ramada I, A. H. 1211), and at Algiers January 3, 1797 (4 Rajab, A. H. 1211). Original in Arabic. Submitted to the Senate May 29, 1797. (Message of May 26, 1797.) Resolution of advice and consent June 7, 1797. Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797. As to the ratification generally, see the notes. Proclaimed Jane 10, 1797.
The following fourteen pages of Arabic are a reproduction of the text in the original treaty book, first the pages of the treaty in left-to-right order of pagination, and then the " receipt " and the " note " mentioned, according to the Barlow translation, in Article 10. Following the Arabic and in the same order, is the translation of Joel Barlow as written in the treaty book-the twelve articles of the treaty, the "receipt," and the "note"; and after these is the approval of David Humphreys from the same document, which is fully described in the notes. Following those texts is the annotated translation of 1930.
[Translation]
Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary.
ARTICLE 1.
There is a firm and perpetual Peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guaranteed by the most potent Dey & regency of Algiers.
ARTICLE 2.
If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war shall be loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party they shall pass free, and no attempt shall be made to take or detain them.
ARTICLE 3.
If any citizens, subjects or effects belonging to either party shall be found on board a prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.
ARTICLE 4.
Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be known. And, considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date of this treaty shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers belonging to such vessels shall be sufficient for their protection.
ARTICLE 5
A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel condemned by the other party or by any other nation, the certificate of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a proper passport.
ARTICLE 6
Vessels of either party putting into the ports of the other and having need of provissions or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put in from a disaster at sea and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and reembark her cargo without paying any duties. But in no case shall she be compelled to land her cargo.
ARTICLE 7.
Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the disposition of the owners, and the crew protected and succoured till they can be sent to their country.
ARTICLE 8.
If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy within gun-shot of the forts of the other she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized or attacked when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to sea no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port within twenty four hours after her departure.
ARTICLE 9.
The commerce between the United States and Tripoli,-the protection to be given to merchants, masters of vessels and seamen,- the reciprocal right of establishing consuls in each country, and the privileges, immunities and jurisdictions to be enjoyed by such consuls, are declared to be on the same footing with those of the most favoured nations respectively.
ARTICLE 10.
The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli as a full and satisfactory consideration on his part and on the part of his subjects for this treaty of perpetual peace and friendship are acknowledged to have been recieved by him previous to his signing the same, according to a reciept which is hereto annexed, except such part as is promised on the part of the United States to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoly, of which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no presence of any periodical tribute or farther payment is ever to be made by either party.
ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
ARTICLE 12.
In case of any dispute arising from a notation of any of the articles of this treaty no appeal shall be made to arms, nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the (consul residing at the place where the dispute shall happen shall not be able to settle the same, an amicable referrence shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Dey of Algiers, the parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he by virtue of his signature to this treaty engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case according to the true interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the same.
Perhaps this alone is not sufficient evidence to to show that the founding fathers of America were not primarily Christians, but it certainly contests the god-suckers claim to fame.
Modern xtians, whose history is generally as shitty as their biology, fail to understand the reason for Paragraph 11 is to distance the US from the traditional European enemies of the Barbary Pirates who were all, of course, xtians. The Pirates were long engaged in commerce raids and slave taking among the shipping of the Med as well as coastal raids of with the intent of capturing xtians for the slave markets of North Africa.
The more powerful European navies were able to enforce treaties against the pirates and prevent attacks on their own shipping. But the British were not going to protect France and Spain was not going to protect Italy. It was not until after the defeat of Napoleon that the major European powers got together to finally stamp out the Barbary pirates and, curiously, when they did so they used the same method which Pompey the Great had used against the Cilician pirates 1900 years earlier: occupy their ports and turn them into colonies.
May 6, 2012 at 4:50 pm (This post was last modified: May 6, 2012 at 4:51 pm by DeeTee.)
Quote:from the traditional European enemies of the Barbary Pirates who were all, of course, xtians
proof please from legitimate objective sources.
One thing that atheists forget is that the treaty of the tripoli does NOT over-rule the founding fathers intent nor the constitution. using it and forgetting that the authors of the treaty and president adams were merely applying their own personal opinion, is a desperation grab to hide from the reality.
Arch, try to remember that you are a Canadian who does not know shit from shinola about the US to begin with.
Add to that your amazing capacity for self-delusion in favor of your bible silliness and virtually anything you say can be dismissed.
Do you really need "proof" that Spain, England, Portugal, France, Italy, and Greece were xtian countries? Where do you think your own crazed form of protestantism arose?
(May 6, 2012 at 4:55 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Arch, try to remember that you are a Canadian who does not know shit from shinola about the US to begin with.
Add to that your amazing capacity for self-delusion in favor of your bible silliness and virtually anything you say can be dismissed.
Do you really need "proof" that Spain, England, Portugal, France, Italy, and Greece were xtian countries? Where do you think your own crazed form of protestantism arose?
What do you think we studied in school? Canadian history? ha Ha Ha. we studied American history for years.
Being a 'christian' country doesn't guarantee that its population is Christian. You should know that by now.
Quote:proof please from legitimate objective sources.
I have no idea if the Barbary pirates were Christians,it's a strawman.
I DO know about the Treaty of Tripoli: ratified unanimously by the US Senate June 7, 1797,signed into law by president John Adams June 10 1797.
Quote:Article 11 reads:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Aside from the blatantly obvious statement in the Treaty of Tripoli, there's also the fact that the laws of the US bear no resemblance to the laws of the bible. The first amendment gives you the freedom to break the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and tenth commandments. Some Christian nation huh?
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