Christianity is not just your ordinary crock of shit, like the sort of sophistry stew imbibed by devotees of Buddhism. Instead, it is a shit with totally undisguised and totally ruthless totalitarian aspirations, geared to corrupt every aspect of a devotee's cognative function, from nonsensical model of his physical universe, to the denigration of the capacity and morality of his fellow men, to the elevation of his own most infantile instincts, to corruption of perception of the life's ultimate objective.

The bad behavior of Christians is not additive to the intrinsically loathsome quality of Christianity. It is the inescapable result of the intrinsically loathsome quality of Christianity.

(May 9, 2012 at 6:11 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

(May 9, 2012 at 6:03 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot...all atheists, all bigoted and violent. Religion can be a convenient cover for the evil, but it's not the cause.

And corrupt communist dictators acting on their political stance, not one of belief in or lack of belief in god. They killed atheists too.
I can name thousands of religious leaders who committed mass murder too.

People are good and bad regardless of religious belief. Keep that in mind.

You stated more clearly what I hoped to convey. We do not disagree.

1. The incredible similarities between OT stories and the Gospel accounts to various contemporary myths.
2. The gross contradictions (and yes, I've heard your "solutions." I own three books that attempt to solve all these "difficulties").
3. The earth is described as being flat, the sky being metal, and the universe as geocentric throughout both the OT and NT.
4. Failed prophecy.
5. Some books of the Bible are forgeries.
6. The fact that God failed at sending a clear message of his truth and desires. Christians groups for 2000 years have yet to arrive to a consensus on fundamental issues.
7. Slavery, genocide, mandated child sacrifice by OT law (yes, that's really in there).

I can go on...

(May 9, 2012 at 10:32 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 9, 2012 at 6:11 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: And corrupt communist dictators acting on their political stance, not one of belief in or lack of belief in god. They killed atheists too.
I can name thousands of religious leaders who committed mass murder too.

People are good and bad regardless of religious belief. Keep that in mind.

You stated more clearly what I hoped to convey. We do not disagree.

Let's not forget communist movement owes its existence to the depressions and excesses of the previous political order, in which various Christian churches were enthusiastic participant, promotor, benefactor, and beneficiary.

1. It is arbitrary. There are thousands of different version and interpretations and everyone insists their is correct on a purely arbitrary basis.

2. Selective interpretation. The Bible is a metaphor when you want it to be and literal likewise. See #1.

3. Self-loathing and paternalism. "We aren't worthy/we are all damned and I can't do anything on my own" is a hideous way to live.

4. Good thing happens, credit God. Bad things happen, mysterious ways.

5. God allows the devil to exist and that's just fine.

6. Free will is used as an excuse for God allowing the holocaust, child rape, etc. As if it's a fair trade.

(May 9, 2012 at 6:13 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: But people kill in the name of their gods often... In the name of atheism... Not so much.

The proper contrast of atheism is theism. And nobody has killed in the name of theism.

Quote:1. It is arbitrary. There are thousands of different version and interpretations and everyone insists their is correct on a purely arbitrary basis.

To an extent. many people love to put their ideas on God's words. it happens or they disagree with another person or group and decide to split. Christians do have free choice like everyone else an dif they do not like something they do get to exercise it and move to 'greener ground.'

Paul said--'If any man or angel brings a different gospel than the one Jesus and the disciples brought...' so we have a guideline as to what is the true message.

Quote:2. Selective interpretation. The Bible is a metaphor when you want it to be and literal likewise. See #1.

Yes that does take place but then you need to determine if that person is truly a christian. Lumping all people into one category is easy but it doesn't work. Jesus said--'At the judgement you will come to me and say Lord Lord. I preached... and I will say I never knew you...'

Jesus disntiguishes between true followers and false ones, atheists should do no less.

Quote:3. Self-loathing and paternalism. "We aren't worthy/we are all damned and I can't do anything on my own" is a hideous way to live.

true but The Bible says -'Without God ye can do nothing' now some people take it to extremes and that is where you need to find a level headed spirtually in tune believer to set things straight.

God said in Genesis when He made man- it is good, thus we should not insult God's creative act as believers and stop belittling ourselves.

Quote:4. Good thing happens, credit God. Bad things happen, mysterious ways

.

Christians do not know everything or why it took place. We give credit to God because we are to do all things to His glory. Sometimes we screw up and we should say that. I amsure many believers do. Sometimes when we do not understand what is taking place, and have to wait till the end result before we see God's hand in it all. So we do say-- God works in mysterious ways because we are NOT privy to all things God does or says. he doesn't confide always in us or ask our permission.

Quote:5. God allows the devil to exist and that's just fine.

he has allowed you to have free choice, how can you make that choice if there is not something enticing you away from God? Yes God allows Him to exist as God has a reason for it. Sometimes we do not get an answer when we ask why?

Quote:6. Free will is used as an excuse for God allowing the holocaust, child rape, etc. As if it's a fair trade.

How many of you are going to give up your sinful lives for what God offers, and you have heard the gospel for a long time now? if you don't, why would you expect child molesters and rapists and murderers to do so? They like the sinful life as much as you do.

Why do women marry abusive men after their friends, family, co-workers warn her NOT to do so? Because she loves him and has free choice.
-----------------------------------------------

Quote:1. The incredible similarities between OT stories and the Gospel accounts to various contemporary myths.

Did you ever stop to think that christianity became so popular that the false religions had to change their religious writings to con some of the people? Or that before Babel, the world was one nation, who all descended from Noah and his sons, they all had the same stories told to them by Noah, etc., and when they started to stray from God, they altered those accounts to fit their ever changing beliefs?

Quote:2. The gross contradictions (and yes, I've heard your "solutions." I own three books that attempt to solve all these "difficulties

What contradictions? If you mean the gospels, think about the fact that different writers include different details and are not really contradicting the other authors but simply containing different information about the same event.

In the case of the civil war, who is the one telling lies--Catton, Foote or Mcpherson? They are all writing about the same event yet do not agree with each other 100%. Are they contradicting each other/ Are there works filled with contradictions? neither are the biblical books.

Quote:3. The earth is described as being flat, the sky being metal, and the universe as geocentric throughout both the OT and NT.

You will have to give me some verses so I can see exactly what you are talkiong about BUT for flat earth, the Bible does not teach that. it does say the '4 corners' but then so do sailors who say, when asked where they have been, I sailed to the four corners of the globe. Are they saying the world is flay? Of course not, they are saying they traveled the whole earth. The Bible is doing the same thing.

The metal reference you gave is probably a metaphor or comparison and I know of no passage that says the sun revolves around the earth. But you might be refering to the passages that talk about the sun rising and setting well so did Einstein--is he saying the sun revolves around the earth? of course not, he is speaking in terms everyone understands.
So is the Bible.

Quote:4. Failed prophecy.

these you would have to list. The terms you used are too general for me to respond to.

Quote:5. Some books of the Bible are forgeries.

False accusations an dno evidence to support such allegations. Metzger dealt with this in an interview with Lee Strobel in his book The Case for Christ page 69. There is no forgery going on.

Quote:6. The fact that God failed at sending a clear message of his truth and desires. Christians groups for 2000 years have yet to arrive to a consensus on fundamental issues.

God sent the message, is it His fault that people screwed it up? The message of the Bible is very clear and easy to understand but John 16, I believe it is, says believers get the help of the HS to learn the truth unbelievers do not.

Quote:7. Slavery, genocide, mandated child sacrifice by OT law (yes, that's really in there).

Question: Are you putting modern western definitions to a Book written by God using middle eastern men 2,000+ years ago and not modern western people living today?

Understanding plays a large part in grasping what the Bible teaches and God is allowed to punish His creation. He set the rules and from Cain on down people have been breaking them.

What do you do when your child disobeys? reward them?

---

(May 9, 2012 at 10:12 pm)Chuck Wrote: Christianity is not just your ordinary crock of shit, like the sort of sophistry stew imbibed by devotees of Buddhism. Instead, it is a shit with totally undisguised and totally ruthless totalitarian aspirations, geared to corrupt every aspect of a devotee's cognative function, from nonsensical model of his physical universe, to the denigration of the capacity and morality of his fellow men, to the elevation of his own most infantile instincts, to corruption of perception of the life's ultimate objective.

The bad behavior of Christians is not additive to the intrinsically loathsome quality of Christianity. It is the inescapable result of the intrinsically loathsome quality of Christianity.

Are you confusing God's way with fallible human interpretation influenced by sin and corruption?

God's Kingdom is a theocracy, the majority does not rule there nor does any other form of government. Just because some misguided people usurp God's authority and replace it with their own doesn't mean they represent God or His kingdom.

It seems to me you are using human actions to justify your decision to live a sinful life and Jesus did not say to follow humans but Him.

(May 10, 2012 at 4:45 am)DeeTee Wrote: To an extent. many people love to put their ideas on God's words. it happens or they disagree with another person or group and decide to split. Christians do have free choice like everyone else an dif they do not like something they do get to exercise it and move to 'greener ground.'

Paul said--'If any man or angel brings a different gospel than the one Jesus and the disciples brought...' so we have a guideline as to what is the true message.

And therein lies my first problem - surely a god who is going to punish you for eternity for not believing in him would have made a bit more of an effort to make sure his word was easily understood by everyone?

Quote:Yes that does take place but then you need to determine if that person is truly a christian. Lumping all people into one category is easy but it doesn't work. Jesus said--'At the judgement you will come to me and say Lord Lord. I preached... and I will say I never knew you...'

Jesus disntiguishes between true followers and false ones, atheists should do no less.

You do love the 'no true scotsman' fallacy, don't you?

Quote:true but The Bible says -'Without God ye can do nothing' now some people take it to extremes and that is where you need to find a level headed spirtually in tune believer to set things straight.

God said in Genesis when He made man- it is good, thus we should not insult God's creative act as believers and stop belittling ourselves.

*Bolding mine*

Let me guess - that person would be you, right? How humble you are.....thank goodness we have you here to "set things straight"

Quote:How many of you are going to give up your sinful lives for what God offers, and you have heard the gospel for a long time now? if you don't, why would you expect child molesters and rapists and murderers to do so? They like the sinful life as much as you do.

Why do women marry abusive men after their friends, family, co-workers warn her NOT to do so? Because she loves him and has free choice.

*Again, bolding mine*

Ok, now we get to the meat of it. Who are you to say that anyone here leads a sinful life? Other than not believing (which I consider undeserving of the label 'sin') what exactly do we do that's so sinful? Come on, oh psychic one, tell me what sins I commit, tell me about my 'sinful life' considering you obviously know so much about it.

As for your abusive spouse analogy, I think you'll find a lot of it has to do with the brainwashing these assholes do before marriage - you're not worthy of love, no-one will ever love you like I do, you'd better do what I tell you or else.......sounds very similar to what believers are told while they're still in their formative years. Trust me, after being fed all that shit for so long, they start to believe it and feel they have no choice but to marry the man. Free choice? On the surface, maybe so.

Quote:It seems to me you are using human actions to justify your decision to live a sinful life and Jesus did not say to follow humans but Him.

Again, tell us about these sinful lives we're living. I'm fascinated with your psychic abilities, and considering I think psychics are full of shit, that's no mean feat!

I don't expect a proper response, I've seen your posts and quite frankly, I think you should be a gymnast with all the twisting you do.

The fact that it was responsible for thousands of years of ignorance,bigotry,genocides,oppression,brainwashing and indoctrination and that it still seeks to penetrate into every aspect of public life,education and science also the fact that it is generally a menace to humanity and doesn't allow us to make progress.
Oh,and the fact that it is false.
Well,that's my opinion on all religions anyhow...

(May 10, 2012 at 3:34 am)Ryft Wrote:

(May 9, 2012 at 6:13 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: But people kill in the name of their gods often... In the name of atheism... Not so much.

The proper contrast of atheism is theism. And nobody has killed in the name of theism.

Meaningless wordplay. People kill in the name of their religion and/or their god. Theism as inspiration to kill. Atheists that kill are not inspired to do so by their lack of belief in gods.