To thine own self be true, or thee can never be true to anyone else.

Agree with Zen...IF you can NOT be true to youself then you are worthless.

(June 18, 2012 at 3:57 am)FallentoReason Wrote: The issue here is that potentially we could go into every little detail and I could give them every last reason why I can't see any reason to believe again. I'm thinking the best thing to do is compromise and make myself look partially stupid i.e. don't bring out some of the reasons for their sake. i highly doubt that then they'll leave it there if I've left intentional holes in my reasoning...

When I have people try to convince me of their thinking I ask myself if they're genuinely trying to help me or if their motives lie elsewhere. A lot of the time it seems people try to score points under the guise of 'helping'. They get satisfaction from saving or correcting people - the satisfaction is derived from being right, from being a saviour, rather than actually being interested in understanding how others feel or what they think. And of course, I'm not saying you friends are like this - I know nothing about them - but it's something to watch out for, especially with any subject someone's heavily invested in.

As someone who feigned stupidity (well, sometimes I only needed to exaggerate it) throughout high school, I wouldn't recommend that route; you've got better things to do than pretend you're ignorant. Maintaining a lie is taxing too, as I'm sure you're experiencing now. Still, tactful omission can sometimes be prudent.

Personally, I say they shouldn't ask questions they aren't prepared to receive the answers to. Provided they aren't going to kill/harm anyone (or themselves) then I say go ahead and answer. You state of non-belief isn't a choice any more more than any other belief you hold. You're revealing a truth about yourself.

(June 18, 2012 at 7:51 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Yes, telling them that I don't want some of these things in my life i.e. I don't believe is absolutely crucial for me to stay sane.

Then I think you've answered your own question. While I can't say I know how difficult it is, I am at least aware it's not easy. If they're worth being around your friendship will weather your revelation. If not, I wonder do you really want a friendship contingent on believing the same thing?

Tempus Wrote:When I have people try to convince me of their thinking I ask myself if they're genuinely trying to help me or if their motives lie elsewhere. A lot of the time it seems people try to score points under the guise of 'helping'. They get satisfaction from saving or correcting people - the satisfaction is derived from being right, from being a saviour, rather than actually being interested in understanding how others feel or what they think. And of course, I'm not saying you friends are like this - I know nothing about them - but it's something to watch out for, especially with any subject someone's heavily invested in.

I think the general motive for discussing with me would be that they're helping me because they see that "eternity is at stake". So I think it's a mix of genuinely wanting to help but because theology says I'm at risk of dying eternally.

Quote:Personally, I say they shouldn't ask questions they aren't prepared to receive the answers to.

I did a test with a friend and I raised a small 'doubt'. Before I told him what it was I kept warning him that he might not be ready for this, that he most definitely hasn't looked into it therefore it will do harm to him. Because he believes he knows the absolute truth he would keep saying 'nah, c'mon hit me with anything. Just try me. You never know I might have an answer'. Well, I pretty much got forced in the end and I asked him how he knew that Apostles/disciples wrote the Gospels. Long story short... He didn't know how to respond and as a consequence he wants to organise for us to meet up with the pastor at his church (we're at different churches luckily). So the moral of that is that they actually don't know what they're getting into and therefore they will ask all the questions I'm sure. Anything to make me convert.

Quote:Provided they aren't going to kill/harm anyone (or themselves) then I say go ahead and answer. You state of non-belief isn't a choice any more more than any other belief you hold. You're revealing a truth about yourself.

This is actually what I fear the most. The theological savvy ones that apply the Bible to everyday life (to the extent that one of my friends would regularly go out and sleep with homeless people so that he could talk to them) have absolutely EVERYTHING to lose. I can't even begin to imagine what they would do. I also have several friends that are PK's (pastor's kids). I don't even want to imagine what their parents would think of me or how they would react....

Quote:Then I think you've answered your own question. While I can't say I know how difficult it is, I am at least aware it's not easy. If they're worth being around your friendship will weather your revelation. If not, I wonder do you really want a friendship contingent on believing the same thing?

I do have a lot of genuine friends which I enjoy being around. The ones that I don't see so often or only around church are aquaintances and the only thing that makes us talk is pretty much the shared belief that I used to have.

---

TO EVERYONE

I really appreciate all this feedback on my situation. It's something that I've been struggling with the day I admitted to myself I had no faith left (~5 months ago).

Some of you might think I'm making a big fuss about it, but you have no idea. To describe the feeling: although it's not true of me, I can kind of feel like it's the same as having suicidal tendencies. In your mind you know it's for the better, but everything else is stopping you from doing it.

P.s. don't take that example out of context by the way. Suicide is NEVER beneficial.[/color]

Throughout the course of our lives friends come and go. I've noticed this more with males than females who will tend to have one or two close friends from childhood that they never lose touch with. But men seem to make friends based on what they are doing at the moment. As life changes so do the people you associate with.

I guess what I'm saying is that if these so-called friends only like you because they believe that you believe in the same silly god shit as they do then you are already in the process of moving beyond them. If they can't accept you for what you are, who needs them? More to the point, why call them "friends?"

(June 18, 2012 at 11:29 am)Minimalist Wrote: Throughout the course of our lives friends come and go. I've noticed this more with males than females who will tend to have one or two close friends from childhood that they never lose touch with. But men seem to make friends based on what they are doing at the moment. As life changes so do the people you associate with.

I guess what I'm saying is that if these so-called friends only like you because they believe that you believe in the same silly god shit as they do then you are already in the process of moving beyond them. If they can't accept you for what you are, who needs them? More to the point, why call them "friends?"

Wow, philosophical genius! Thanks for sharing that. I believe I might have an answer to that which might actually be the answer/thing that will happen.

I've already been a non-believer for 5 months. They just don't know it. Yeah, I know sometimes I've said that I play along so that I don't get found out BUT... I remember 3 of my friends telling me (at different times) around 3-4 months after my deconversion that something had changed about me. All 3 said it was nothing major but I was different. I'm not sure what I've stopped/started doing, but my point is: maybe they don't know it but they're actually already used to me being a non-believer. So all I would be doing now is letting them know. SO, ironically, I just have to have the faith that they will realise for the past 5 months I've been tolerable, that it's not that bad. We don't need a common belief to be friends.

(June 18, 2012 at 5:45 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

(June 18, 2012 at 4:52 am)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: Or could it be that he knows that he will lose some friends who will choose god (invisible, made up being) over himself (material, real being)? I think that much more likely.

I know for sure that with some people it will definitely alter our friendship and I'll be seen as a 'bad influence' from then on...

I've had nonbelieving friends for many years, and it was them not me that were uncomfortable with the situation. Why would a Christian who is strong in their faith be afraid of someone who does not believe. If you talk to them about your unbelief tell them that is what it is, do not mention the word atheist.

(June 19, 2012 at 12:28 am)Godschild Wrote:

(June 18, 2012 at 5:45 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I know for sure that with some people it will definitely alter our friendship and I'll be seen as a 'bad influence' from then on...

I've had nonbelieving friends for many years, and it was them not me that were uncomfortable with the situation. Why would a Christian who is strong in their faith be afraid of someone who does not believe. If you talk to them about your unbelief tell them that is what it is, do not mention the word atheist.

It's not that they would be afraid of me. They would just look down on me and probably ask 'why don't you just go and have as much sex as you can before you die then.' No word of a lie, one of my friends actually said that about the general public.

I don't want to be labelled as immoral simply because I don't subscribe to the Divine Command Theory (an act, x, is morally right if, and only if, God commands it).

I wouldn't call myself atheist, although that's what I come under. Today that word carries too much baggage which I don't want to be associated with (even though the definition of 'atheist' has nothing to do with that baggage).

(June 17, 2012 at 5:55 am)FallentoReason Wrote: My Situation

I still haven't told a single friend face-to-face that I don't believe in God anymore. My reasons for this are pretty simple (or they used to be) and they're basically to do with the arguments that would inevitably follow about what the truth is. I don't want to engage in arguments with the people that I enjoy being with, but at the same time I want to start living and acting the way I actually see fit which I obviously can't without them noticing that I've changed.

I have started to think ahead in order to somewhat predict what would happen if I told everyone 100% that I have no faith and my reasons why. As the title of this thread suggests, I fear there is only one possible future and I have the gut feeling that it is also morally bad on my part. I'll explain further in hopes that you guys might be able to enlighten me on this thought. Maybe it can't be seen as entirely morally bad.

Possible Futures

If I sat down a friend and honestly told him I actually don't believe in God, I'm 100% confident that we won't simply get up and leave it at that. I'm sure that they will feel obliged to convince me to have faith again. So assuming that this is what would happen, let's fast-track to the end of the discussion at what the possible futures might be.

-I have been convinced-

I acknowledge this could be a possibility. Two things to consider here.

1. I'm okay with this because as a free thinker I naturally accept that any idea or claim can have truth to it. I just need the logical reasons for then believing it is in fact true.
   
2. A bit of a side note, but I have heard most of the apologetic arguments and definitely a lot more arguments against Christianity and the refutations to most apologetic arguments. I don't believe that their chances of converting me are very high at all.
   

This possible future can be seen as the morally good one overall because I implicitly gave my consent to be swayed by initiating the discussion. There wouldn't be anything wrong here between the two of us morally.

-I have (somewhat) convinced them-

Knowing the reasons for why I left, I know what it would take for me to convert back, and so far these reasons haven't been close to being refuted. With that said, I believe the most likely outcome will be this one where I have severely left them doubting, if not, deconverted. I'm almost confident that that is what would happen because I know they haven't been exposed to even the possible ideas about why Christianity might be wrong. These are things that we all see as the standard arguments here on forums (e.g. a Biblical Jesus most likely non-existent). So I believe on their first hearing of such reasons why I have no faith, there will be severe damage done.

This possible future seems like the one that is most likely and I fear that the repercussions will be very bad. I see it as morally bad because I know that some of my friends have horrific pasts and they need faith as a sort of cure. Regardless of whether Christianity is true or not, taking this away from them would do some brutal mental damage and irreparable scarring which I would be responsible for.


Where does this leave me? I don't think it's greedy of me to want to live the way I see fit now and act upon my true beliefs, but how can that be done without being immoral? Can it be said that taking away someone's faith is an immoral act?

Personally, were I to encounter a long-time "Christian" friend who no longer believed in God, my first thought would be to wonder whether they were ever truly a Christian at all. The Church is populated with all kinds of people that read their Bibles, attend church, and even teach Sunday school that aren't genuine regenerate believers. The fact that someone like this might ultimately decide to be honest with themselves and respond to their true nature rather than to God's call on their life wouldn't really surprise me at all. It would be disheartening and discouraging but not surprising.

I would probably be interested in their perspective and how they came to the conclusions they have. And yeah, I probably would say a few words, assuming I had something to say; in the hopes that they might rethink some perspective about which they are significantly mistaken. However, there is no way that I or anyone else would be able to argue that person back into the Kingdom. Salvation is something that is accomplished by God, not by man. In that context, if you are determined not to believe in God, there is very little that anyone can do, no matter how well intentioned they might be. Richard Weaver wrote a book called Ideas Have Consequences, in which he said something like this...

“Nothing good can come if the will is wrong, and to give evidence to him who loves not the truth, is only to give him more plentiful material for misinterpretation.”

I suspect that this is as true now as it was then, ad I'm certain that it is true in your case as well. Someone who is more interested in the truth than anything else might be able to come to some useful conclusions, but typically, human beings don't like the truth. They'd rather conform the truth to their own predispositions than conform their own views and attitudes to the truth.

gomtuu77 Wrote:Personally, were I to encounter a long-time "Christian" friend who no longer believed in God, my first thought would be to wonder whether they were ever truly a Christian at all.

I'm not surprised. The quicker you can justify the No True Scotsman fallacy, the safer one feels about one's faith. That's how I felt every time I heard of well known people leaving the faith. Such people included Bart Ehrman.

Quote:The Church is populated with all kinds of people that read their Bibles, attend church, and even teach Sunday school that aren't genuine regenerate believers.

Would a genuine believer do these things(?):

FallentoReason Wrote:Being a member of the worship team at church, being a member of a Christian-only band with aspirations to make it big, missionary work, dreams to start a family that lives for God, bible study group member, 'life group' member... every last detail about me relies on the Bible.

Quote:However, there is no way that I or anyone else would be able to argue that person back into the Kingdom.

There is so much you can do. Take Drich as an example. He has stated that he's here to clear up any misconceptions about Christianity. That would go a long way to turn someone around and make it easier for them to have faith again.

Quote:...if you are determined not to believe in God, there is very little that anyone can do, no matter how well intentioned they might be.

I know this is the last thing you want to hear, but I don't have an agenda. My belief in God would be a choice not based on what I want to be true. I'm a free thinker. Show me why scripture is reliable and I'll have no choice but to accept that as truth. This is my only intention in life; to get a hold of what's true.

Quote:Someone who is more interested in the truth than anything else might be able to come to some useful conclusions, but typically, human beings don't like the truth.

Again, I know you don't want to hear this, but I was only after the truth when I began searching for answers to questions that church wasn't providing. And yes, you're right, we don't like the truth, but that cuts both ways doesn't it? Do you think I converted overnight after finding an 'excuse' to 'finally' have to stop believing? I was training myself up to be an apologist and I was defending the faith across all frontiers. I wasn't going to give up on the truth at all because it was my life, it IS my life (hence this thread).

Quote:They'd rather conform the truth to their own predispositions than conform their own views and attitudes to the truth.

Does it seem like someone in my position has done that? I had everything to lose by doing research and knowing for myself what's true. God was my source of life.