(July 16, 2012 at 10:04 pm)apophenia Wrote:

(July 16, 2012 at 8:54 pm)spockrates Wrote: Honestly, I'm sincerely curios [sic] and seeking the truth about the topic.

I had one word to say, and that is, "troll." For 12 years I've been a moderator on one of the most popular — and most frequently trolled — channels on EFNet, so this is not exactly unfamiliar ground for me. And you may not believe yourself to be a troll. But that's another topic, for another language game, and another set of players.)

Guys, I've got some alternatives for you to play with

(July 16, 2012 at 10:06 pm)FemmeReasonAndLogic Wrote: Genesis 32:30: "I have seen the face of God."
John 1:18 and 4:12: "Nobody has seen the face of God."
Right there.

Is it possible for a blind man to see?

---

(July 17, 2012 at 8:19 am)jonb Wrote:

(July 16, 2012 at 10:04 pm)apophenia Wrote: I had one word to say, and that is, "troll." For 12 years I've been a moderator on one of the most popular — and most frequently trolled — channels on EFNet, so this is not exactly unfamiliar ground for me. And you may not believe yourself to be a troll. But that's another topic, for another language game, and another set of players.)

Guys, I've got some alternatives for you to play with

And if you asked one of these dwarves, "Which one are you? Happy, or sneezy?" What would it say?

(July 17, 2012 at 8:24 am)spockrates Wrote:

(July 16, 2012 at 10:06 pm)FemmeReasonAndLogic Wrote: Genesis 32:30: "I have seen the face of God."
John 1:18 and 4:12: "Nobody has seen the face of God."
Right there.

Is it possible for a blind man to see?

That's irrelevant. Seems like a red herring to the contradiction.

Anyways Spockrates, you seem like your genuinely seeking the truth, I think people are projecting the image of people they've dealt with in the past with you.

I actual don't find this to be a contradiction, because I remember in Shiite Islam, there was this belief regarding seeing God.

1) You can't fully see God and all fall short of seeing the glory of his face.
2) You can see God and see his face, but his face is a brought down light/created glory.

The face of God was said to remain when things disappear, so it is both seen and unseen.

God is seen to a degree, but unseen to a greater degree. His Glory/Command/Face is seen to a degree, but is unseen to a degree.

This is how I reconciled the Quran saying vision grasps him not, and saying believers will be looking towards God, plus mutuwatir du'a of Imams asking to see God.

So I solved this contradiction that way.

(July 17, 2012 at 7:42 am)ElDinero Wrote: Googled Salah yet? Found out who his father was yet? Going to just carry on ignoring the question?

So much to google; so little time! Before I do, please tell me: Is this regarding two biblical passages that contradict each other, or is it regarding something else?

spockrates Wrote:So let's say we disagree about a painting we see. Who would be most qualified to settle the disagreement and tell us whose interpretation of the work of art is more accurate?

Why, the painter themselves of course. This is why it's absolutely critical to my p.o.v. to understand firstly that none of the Gospels were written by the people tradition likes to say wrote them and secondly the sort of people living at the time i.e. Jewish philosophers in a Hellenistic world e.g. Philo of Alexandria whose allegorical interpretation of the OT foreshadows Christian thought. Yes, knowing the type of person who wrote the Gospels is key to understanding what I believe to be an allegory.

(July 17, 2012 at 8:59 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

spockrates Wrote:So let's say we disagree about a painting we see. Who would be most qualified to settle the disagreement and tell us whose interpretation of the work of art is more accurate?

Why, the painter themselves of course. This is why it's absolutely critical to my p.o.v. to understand firstly that none of the Gospels were written by the people tradition likes to say wrote them and secondly the sort of people living at the time i.e. Jewish philosophers in a Hellenistic world e.g. Philo of Alexandria whose allegorical interpretation of the OT foreshadows Christian thought. Yes, knowing the type of person who wrote the Gospels is key to understanding what I believe to be an allegory.

Well said! I have to say you've caught onto that symbolism quicker than anyone I've ever asked that question, before. Perhaps you are already familiar with the words of Socrates on the subject?

I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing unfortunately suffers from the same flaw as painting. For the creations of the painter have the appearance of life, and yet if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence. And the same may be said of the written word. You would imagine that it had intelligence, but if you want to know anything and put a question to what you are reading, it always gives one unvarying answer over and over again. And once written down in books the word travels promiscuously about the world, among those who may or may not understand it, and it knows not to whom it should speak or to whom not to speak. And if the written word is slandered or abused, it needs the author of its being to come to its aid. For the written word cannot protect or defend itself.

(Phaedrus)


So then, when someone tells me not to ask her about any biblical contradictions, but to leave her out of it and go read them myself, what good will it do me if I have questions to ask the authors of these criticisms? Like silent paintings, their written commentaries on scripture will not be able to answer my questions! Moreover should I have no questions and think I comprehend them, how do I know that they themselves have not misunderstood the intented meanings of the biblical authors they criticize?

My thought, then is this: The best way to discover the truth is to ask as many thoughtful people who will answer (like yourself) what they think the author's written words mean, and to rule out every impossible interpretation until whatever remains (no matter how improbable) is the truth. Once we determine the true intended meaning of each text, only then will we be in a sound position to make a rational and reliable judgment as to whether any contradictions really exist between them. Don't you agree?

(July 17, 2012 at 8:35 am)spockrates Wrote: So much to google; so little time! Before I do, please tell me: Is this regarding two biblical passages that contradict each other, or is it regarding something else?

Tell you what, just click this and respond:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/salah.html

(July 17, 2012 at 12:17 pm)spockrates Wrote: Well said! I have to say you've caught onto that symbolism quicker than anyone I've ever asked that question, before. Perhaps you are already familiar with the words of Socrates on the subject?

I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing unfortunately suffers from the same flaw as painting. For the creations of the painter have the appearance of life, and yet if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence. And the same may be said of the written word. You would imagine that it had intelligence, but if you want to know anything and put a question to what you are reading, it always gives one unvarying answer over and over again. And once written down in books the word travels promiscuously about the world, among those who may or may not understand it, and it knows not to whom it should speak or to whom not to speak. And if the written word is slandered or abused, it needs the author of its being to come to its aid. For the written word cannot protect or defend itself.

(Phaedrus)


So then, when someone tells me not to ask her about any biblical contradictions, but to leave her out of it and go read them myself, what good will it do me if I have questions to ask the authors of these criticisms? Like silent paintings, their written commentaries on scripture will not be able to answer my questions! Moreover should I have no questions and think I comprehend them, how do I know that they themselves have not misunderstood the intented meanings of the biblical authors they criticize?

My thought, then is this: The best way to discover the truth is to ask as many thoughtful people who will answer (like yourself) what they think the author's written words mean, and to rule out every impossible interpretation until whatever remains (no matter how improbable) is the truth. Once we determine the true intended meaning of each text, only then will we be in a sound position to make a rational and reliable judgment as to whether any contradictions really exist between them. Don't you agree?

I couldn't have said it better myself!

Having said all this then, what's your view on the possibility of Mark being something other than an historical account like I have been saying?

Quote:Once again, the purpose of this discussion thread is different from your own.

Horseshit.

In case you forgot - because you seem to have trouble holding on to a thought - this was your OP.

Quote:I'm wondering whether there are any biblical passages that contradict one another. Please provide two contradictory passages for discussion and explain why they result in a contradiction. Thanks.

You have spent the rest of the time dishonestly trying to dodge the examples put to you.

You, sir, are a fucking bullshit artist.

GO BLOW JESUS OUT YOUR ASS.

Why is the band Kiss so popular in gnome form?