(July 27, 2012 at 4:52 pm)HappyHumanist Wrote: When you find out that someone you admire and respect -- someone who is very intelligent and otherwise full of common sense -- believes in god, does your opinion of him/her take a nosedive?

Sadly, yes if they go on about it.

(July 29, 2012 at 3:16 am)Ryantology Wrote: It's really hard to argue that atheism and American conservatism have much in the way of compatibility, not because atheism is inherently anti-conservative, but that American conservatism is inherently anti-atheist.

Support? Evidence?

Quote:But, of course, there are few absolutes. There are, as an example, the Log Cabin Republicans, gay men and women inexplicably affiliated with a party which seems largely proud of viewing them as less than human.

"largely" proud? Evidence?

(July 27, 2012 at 4:52 pm)HappyHumanist Wrote: When you find out that someone you admire and respect -- someone who is very intelligent and otherwise full of common sense -- believes in god, does your opinion of him/her take a nosedive?

No, I even married one!

(July 29, 2012 at 8:52 pm)CliveStaples Wrote: Support? Evidence?

Quote:"largely" proud? Evidence?

There are certainly individual conservatives who don't buy into the entire package of American conservatism, but I'm referring to that package, and not the individuals. I certainly cannot remember the last time I saw a liberal group lobbying for prayer in schools or the Ten Commandments to be displayed at a courthouse, or in favor of 'traditional' marriage according to God. I do know of some conservatives with the moral fortitude to resist such nonsense, and how they tend to be classified as RINOs by those more willing to toe the party line.

I could cite examples, but you're asking me to prove that the sky is blue here, so if you want evidence, look up.

(July 31, 2012 at 10:27 am)Ryantology Wrote: I could cite examples, but you're asking me to prove that the sky is blue here, so if you want evidence, look up.

It seems pretty clear to me as well. Conservatives are typically coached or at least heavily influenced by their tax exempt churches to hold their version of conservative political dogma.

More often than not,
Christian => Conservative => Xenophobia, homophobia, rants against equal rights, etc.

Atheists tend to be more open-minded. I don't know why. Here in America I might speculate that this is due to atheist's sympathy for homosexuals, being able to relate at least a bit, being that we share being discriminated against.

(July 31, 2012 at 10:27 am)Ryantology Wrote: There are certainly individual conservatives who don't buy into the entire package of American conservatism, but I'm referring to that package, and not the individuals. I certainly cannot remember the last time I saw a liberal group lobbying for prayer in schools or the Ten Commandments to be displayed at a courthouse, or in favor of 'traditional' marriage according to God. I do know of some conservatives with the moral fortitude to resist such nonsense, and how they tend to be classified as RINOs by those more willing to toe the party line.

So because liberal organizations don't happen to make exactly the same policy arguments regarding religion, conservatives are more prone to bad policy regarding religion?

Quote:I could cite examples, but you're asking me to prove that the sky is blue here, so if you want evidence, look up.

Yeah, because supporting your articles of faith is just so time-consuming. I mean, everyone just knows that [claim you believe very strongly] is true, right? You shouldn't have to support your claims with things like evidence. That's not what atheism is about!

---

(July 31, 2012 at 2:04 pm)Skepsis Wrote: It seems pretty clear to me as well. Conservatives are typically coached or at least heavily influenced by their tax exempt churches to hold their version of conservative political dogma.

Oh, well, if it seems clear, then you should just go ahead and believe it. Right, Skepsis? What a hilariously inappropriate name.

Quote:More often than not,
Christian => Conservative => Xenophobia, homophobia, rants against equal rights, etc.

Atheists tend to be more open-minded. I don't know why. Here in America I might speculate that this is due to atheist's sympathy for homosexuals, being able to relate at least a bit, being that we share being discriminated against.

Any evidence for this, or are these just more of those claims that seem true? Which as we all know, skeptics should always believe.

(July 31, 2012 at 4:59 pm)CliveStaples Wrote: So because liberal organizations don't happen to make exactly the same policy arguments regarding religion, conservatives are more prone to bad policy regarding religion?

Conservatives are more prone to bad policy regarding religion because conservatives are more prone to be religious. I believe any policy involving religion intruding into social freedom is terrible.

Quote:Yeah, because supporting your articles of faith is just so time-consuming. I mean, everyone just knows that [claim you believe very strongly] is true, right? You shouldn't have to support your claims with things like evidence. That's not what atheism is about!

Supporting what is common knowledge is a waste of time, hence the analogy I made. I'm not conducting science here.

Tell you what: I will show you five examples of conservative politicians who oppose gay marriage on religious grounds for every one liberal politician you find opposing it on the same grounds. That sounds like it would produce fair and demonstrable evidence of my assertion, don't you agree?

I think it's a nonsense bet, of course, but it's more interesting than me simply listing a wall of right-wing bigots demeaning homosexuals in the name of Jesus, which I could do with a Google search and five minutes. I welcome you to take it.

EDIT: I altered the terms of the challenge to politicians rather than just any individual, as the issue regards policy.

(July 31, 2012 at 6:03 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Conservatives are more prone to bad policy regarding religion because conservatives are more prone to be religious. I believe any policy involving religion intruding into social freedom is terrible.

Hmm. So you're not claiming that religious Conservatives are more prone to error than religious Liberals?

Quote:Supporting what is common knowledge is a waste of time, hence the analogy I made. I'm not conducting science here.

Ah, common knowledge. Like that God exists, right?

Quote:Tell you what: I will show you five examples of conservative individuals who oppose gay marriage on religious grounds for every one liberal individual you find opposing it on the same grounds. That sounds like it would produce fair and demonstrable evidence of my assertion, don't you agree?

I think it's a nonsense bet, of course, but it's more interesting than me simply listing a wall of right-wing bigots demeaning homosexuals in the name of Jesus, which I could do with a Google search and five minutes. I welcome you to take it.

The burden is on you to support your claims. I don't have to provide shit to disbelieve an unsupported claim.

(July 31, 2012 at 6:12 pm)CliveStaples Wrote: Hmm. So you're not claiming that religious Conservatives are more prone to error than religious Liberals?

That is precisely what I just said, and in the line you quoted

Quote:Ah, common knowledge. Like that God exists, right?

I'm not of the opinion that your fantasy delusion constitutes knowledge.

Quote:The burden is on you to support your claims. I don't have to provide shit to disbelieve an unsupported claim.

"It's pretty simple: marriage is between a man and a woman. This is a historic doctrine driven deep into the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, and it's a perfect example of what I mean by the rise of paganism. The effort to create alternatives to marriage between a man and a woman are perfectly natural pagan behaviors, but they are a fundamental violation of our civilization."

-Newt Gingrich

"Any of you who have members of your family that are in the lifestyle — we have a member of our family that is. This is not funny. It's a very sad life. It's part of Satan, I think, to say this is "gay". It's anything but gay."

-Michele Bachmann

"I had Piers Morgan call me a bigot. Because I believe what the Catholic Church teaches with respect to homosexuality, I'm a bigot. So now I'm a bigot? Because I believe what the Bible teaches. Now, 2,000 years of teaching and moral theology is now bigoted! And of course we don't elect bigots to office. We don't give them professional licenses. We don't give them preferential tax treatment. If you're a preacher and you preach bigoted things, you think you're gonna be allowed to have a 501©(3) as a church? Of course not. No, this has profound consequence! To the entire moral ecology of America! It will undermine the family; it will destroy faith in America!"

-Rick Santorum

"We have a war on our moral fiber. We will not allow the godless few to destroy our moral foundation."

-Herman Cain, in response to Georgia's constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage

"As conservatives we believe in the sanctity of life. We believe in the sanctity of traditional marriage. And I applaud those legislators in New Hampshire who are working to defend marriage as an institution between one man and one woman, realizing that children need to be raised in a loving home by a mother and a father."

-Rick Perry

Okay! Your turn!

(July 31, 2012 at 6:44 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(July 31, 2012 at 6:12 pm)CliveStaples Wrote: Hmm. So you're not claiming that religious Conservatives are more prone to error than religious Liberals?

That is precisely what I just said, and in the line you quoted

...huh? Which part is what you said?

"So you're not claiming that religious Conservatives are more prone to error than religious Liberals?" <- Is that what you just said? That is, you just said, "I'm not claiming that religious Conservatives are more prone to error than religious Liberals?"

Or do you mean that you just said, "religious Conservatives are more prone to error than religious liberals"?

Quote:I'm not of the opinion that your fantasy delusion constitutes knowledge.

My point is that calling something 'common knowledge' isn't a convincing argument.

Quote:

Quote:The burden is on you to support your claims. I don't have to provide shit to disbelieve an unsupported claim.

"It's pretty simple: marriage is between a man and a woman. This is a historic doctrine driven deep into the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, and it's a perfect example of what I mean by the rise of paganism. The effort to create alternatives to marriage between a man and a woman are perfectly natural pagan behaviors, but they are a fundamental violation of our civilization."

-Newt Gingrich

"Any of you who have members of your family that are in the lifestyle — we have a member of our family that is. This is not funny. It's a very sad life. It's part of Satan, I think, to say this is "gay". It's anything but gay."

-Michele Bachmann

"I had Piers Morgan call me a bigot. Because I believe what the Catholic Church teaches with respect to homosexuality, I'm a bigot. So now I'm a bigot? Because I believe what the Bible teaches. Now, 2,000 years of teaching and moral theology is now bigoted! And of course we don't elect bigots to office. We don't give them professional licenses. We don't give them preferential tax treatment. If you're a preacher and you preach bigoted things, you think you're gonna be allowed to have a 501©(3) as a church? Of course not. No, this has profound consequence! To the entire moral ecology of America! It will undermine the family; it will destroy faith in America!"

-Rick Santorum

"We have a war on our moral fiber. We will not allow the godless few to destroy our moral foundation."

-Herman Cain, in response to Georgia's constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage

"As conservatives we believe in the sanctity of life. We believe in the sanctity of traditional marriage. And I applaud those legislators in New Hampshire who are working to defend marriage as an institution between one man and one woman, realizing that children need to be raised in a loving home by a mother and a father."

-Rick Perry

Okay! Your turn!

That's good evidence that Gingrich, Bachmann, Santorum, Cain, and Perry don't support same-sex marriage. I'm not sure it's good evidence that Republicans are largely proud of viewing homosexuals as less than human.