Most people in the Forum seem to think I'm more an atheist than a Christian. Someone suggested that I should start a thread about my position on what Christianity should be and how I view it. First, I'm not an atheist but I am a Christian. I serve the church and have done so as an altar boy since I was 5. I sang in the boys' choir from about 6 until recently when they thought my voice might break any time. There's no doubt I am a Christian. I'm on good terms with the clergy.

But I have always acknowledged that there is no evidence or even rational justification for God, faith and the supernatural/superstitious. The Bible is full of errors and untruths and even contain outright lies. It's unreliable, immoral, its canon is dubious, its transmission through the centuries totally fraught with problems and serious flaws. It's obvious St Paul's teachings conflicted with the original teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

Why then do I continue with the faith?

1. Religion is cultural.

Religion is very much a part of my identity - national, familial and personal. Why rebel against that? It may be different if I was brought up in a fundamentalist church. That would be pretty disgusting. But the Church of England makes the religion more cultural than superstitious. It's the State church. Our Queen is the Head. A lot of State functions are religious. My school in England is owned by the Church and has performed church rituals for the past 500 years or so. Why change anything? It may be different in the US because the religion there is more about belief than practice. Practice is cultural.

2. I don't like to be a rebel.

I'm still young and I don't like to kick up a fuss for nothing. My parents aren't even religious in the fundamentalist sense. If I tell them God can't be defended logically and there is no evidence whatsoever for him, my parents will just agree with me because they don't think much of God in the first place. If I tell them the Bible is full of nonsense, my Mum would say "What did you expect? It's such an ancient book". But they would expect me to go through the rituals as a part of tradition and culture. That's precisely how I see Christianity anyway.

3. My emotions are stirred in a funny way during holy rituals.

When I am participating in a ritual which is very holy, I get a funny feeling in me. I know there is a perfectly logical explanation for it. As an altar boy, I was told at which point the holiest thing would take place in church. I was only 5 years old and naturally, I was a little frightened when that moment happened. It's like God descended to the altar. Now, I'm no longer frightened because I've been an altar boy for so long and besides, I know nothing will happen but I still get a funny feeling when the priest, the other altar boy and I kneel at that holiest moment. This is funny because at that moment, the whole congregation doesn't seem to realize it's the holiest moment. Only the priests and the altar boys know it and we kneel to the sacrament. I have done this all my life and I still feel something in me when the moment comes. Like I said, there is a logical reason why I should feel that. Rayaan probably feels the same when it's the holiest moment in the mosque. It's cultural. But it's not a bad feeling so why stop it? It feels like something important is happening but in reality, nothing happens. Nothing special or supernatural has ever happened in all my life as an altar boy. But even if it's not true, what's the harm?

To leave the church appears more like an act of disloyalty for me. Why am I embarrassed of my ancestors? True, they believed in a lot of rubbish and were superstitious but that's because they lived in ancient times. Today, I can continue the culture without the superstition. Lots of people in my church do precisely that. We continue the culture without the superstition.

TL: DR: still christian because it's nice.

So how do you justify your belief in God to yourself? That is all I want to know... I don't care what church you go to or what you do their as that has nothing to do with it.

(September 1, 2012 at 9:33 am)frankiej Wrote: So how do you justify your belief in God to yourself? That is all I want to know... I don't care what church you go to or what you do their as that has nothing to do with it.

God is for me a concept. Not a being. If he were a being, that'd be superstitious. It's like believing in a bogeyman. But He is not a being. He's a concept or a metaphor for goodness. It's like the ancient miracle plays where you personify a quality or an attribute.

(September 1, 2012 at 9:26 am)greneknight Wrote: It's obvious St Paul's teachings conflicted with the original teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

That sentence made me want to kiss you.

The number of debates I've had with Paulians who called themselves Christians... it's insane, the degree of denial that some people are in, it really is. If I shared the Christian viewpoint (about Jesus actually being the son of God), the disparity between the message of Jesus and the message of Saul of Tarsus would leave me wondering if the voice that he heard on his way to Damascus wasn't actually that of the devil. How can any Christian/Paulian really know the source of St Paul's message?

As for the rest of your post... you're not alone, in the UK (or, I'm sure, elsewhere in the world) when you say that your belief-set is a cultural one, rather than a religious one. In Terry Pratchett's Small Gods, the message was a clear one... people worship the church, not the god(s). Culture is a prevalent meme; but that does not make it an excusable one. Bad things happen because zealots use the numbers of "worshippers" as justification for their right to impinge on the rest of society.

You are still young. As you age, please keep in mind that there are secular groups to which you could switch your loyalty.

(September 1, 2012 at 9:40 am)greneknight Wrote:

(September 1, 2012 at 9:33 am)frankiej Wrote: So how do you justify your belief in God to yourself? That is all I want to know... I don't care what church you go to or what you do their as that has nothing to do with it.

God is for me a concept. Not a being. If he were a being, that'd be superstitious. It's like believing in a bogeyman. But He is not a being. He's a concept or a metaphor for goodness. It's like the ancient miracle plays where you personify a quality or an attribute.

Right so by that are we to understand that you make no claims towards any type of supernatural being or afterlife but have re-purposed the word "God" to be a concept of innate human morality?

Tell you what, I think theres already more accurate words for that which don't need re-purposing. Just add another "o" and you'll have used one of them.

You could also try embracing your English heritage and history without shackling yourself to any belief system? That works too. Theres some great cathedrals in Cambridge you know. Go on a tour or something and admire the architecture and artistic qualities, no superstition required.

Grene, I've said it before. I dig how your mind works. And I can understand where you're coming from when you say you won't leave because it would be like betraying your family's history and tradition. My question for you is what do you think about those of us that are not believers, Christians or whatever else of any sort? I've seen you in debate and this thread of yours has helped me understand your views better.

Sometimes culture isnt just worth it

Why would you rebel,we arent rebels we are just fellow logic thinkers,we arent rebeling against anyone.

You get such a felling when you are going to get an new material,or when you are in love,this are just random feelings so this does not prove anything


And pleas tell me,how much blood is in that cross you so much adore

How many religions were thought in this world? A million maybe more,so this is another proof that in the begging man created god.

Look at the fossils,found all over the world,like when you go in your fancy car,you burn fosills that were created,by high pressure,heat this process needet million of years,when the church claims the earth is old 6000 years.

So if god created man before women,that means that religion is automatic sexsist.

And if god created us in his own likeness,so he has created cripple folks,so god is a cripple him self,wow!

Why would you again choose an 500 hundred or more years old book than science facts that are proven!

If god is so generous,why does he make people suffer,go to wars,why does he created such places when people suffer? (Places like africa,and other third world countries)Why does't he give them food if he is so nice.

If adam and eve were both white,from where did the blacks come from?

(September 1, 2012 at 9:26 am)greneknight Wrote: When I am participating in a ritual which is very holy, I get a funny feeling in me. I know there is a perfectly logical explanation for it. As an altar boy, I was told at which point the holiest thing would take place in church. I was only 5 years old and naturally, I was a little frightened when that moment happened. It's like God descended to the altar. Now, I'm no longer frightened because I've been an altar boy for so long and besides, I know nothing will happen but I still get a funny feeling when the priest, the other altar boy and I kneel at that holiest moment. This is funny because at that moment, the whole congregation doesn't seem to realize it's the holiest moment. Only the priests and the altar boys know it and we kneel to the sacrament.

You should be careful as to how you say things. This can so easily be misinterpreted.

(September 1, 2012 at 11:28 am)CaseyTheAthie Wrote: Grene, I've said it before. I dig how your mind works. And I can understand where you're coming from when you say you won't leave because it would be like betraying your family's history and tradition. My question for you is what do you think about those of us that are not believers, Christians or whatever else of any sort? I've seen you in debate and this thread of yours has helped me understand your views better.

What do I think of those who are not believers, etc? No difference to me. I don't expect others to share my family name or follow my cultural traditions. Religion is extremely private and is for the individual to decide. If I had a brother and he wants to be an atheist, that's fine too. Or it's fine also if he wants to adopt some other religion but I'd rather he becomes an atheist. I don't feel so good about Islam because whatever people say about it, I don't really believe it's a religion of peace. It's like Christianity before the enlightenment when we burnt witches, etc. There's a lot of harm in that religion. But I'm ok with people who are in that culture, like the Arabs. But if I had a brother and he wanted to be an Islamist, I'd like to know why the devil he chose that religion of all the religions in the world.

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(September 1, 2012 at 11:49 am)Homo Sapiens Wrote: Sometimes culture isnt just worth it

Why would you rebel,we arent rebels we are just fellow logic thinkers,we arent rebeling against anyone.

You get such a felling when you are going to get an new material,or when you are in love,this are just random feelings so this does not prove anything


And pleas tell me,how much blood is in that cross you so much adore

How many religions were thought in this world? A million maybe more,so this is another proof that in the begging man created god.

Look at the fossils,found all over the world,like when you go in your fancy car,you burn fosills that were created,by high pressure,heat this process needet million of years,when the church claims the earth is old 6000 years.

So if god created man before women,that means that religion is automatic sexsist.

And if god created us in his own likeness,so he has created cripple folks,so god is a cripple him self,wow!

Why would you again choose an 500 hundred or more years old book than science facts that are proven!

If god is so generous,why does he make people suffer,go to wars,why does he created such places when people suffer? (Places like africa,and other third world countries)Why does't he give them food if he is so nice.

If adam and eve were both white,from where did the blacks come from?

Most of your questions are best put to fundamentalist Christians. My church accepts evolution. We think a 6000 year old earth is stupid. We don't think Adam and Eve were historical. You are obviously an American with a set idea of the American Bible belt version of Christianity. It's not like this in Europe.