(September 1, 2012 at 12:42 pm)greneknight Wrote:

(September 1, 2012 at 11:28 am)CaseyTheAthie Wrote: Grene, I've said it before. I dig how your mind works. And I can understand where you're coming from when you say you won't leave because it would be like betraying your family's history and tradition. My question for you is what do you think about those of us that are not believers, Christians or whatever else of any sort? I've seen you in debate and this thread of yours has helped me understand your views better.

What do I think of those who are not believers, etc? No difference to me. I don't expect others to share my family name or follow my cultural traditions. Religion is extremely private and is for the individual to decide. If I had a brother and he wants to be an atheist, that's fine too. Or it's fine also if he wants to adopt some other religion but I'd rather he becomes an atheist. I don't feel so good about Islam because whatever people say about it, I don't really believe it's a religion of peace. It's like Christianity before the enlightenment when we burnt witches, etc. There's a lot of harm in that religion. But I'm ok with people who are in that culture, like the Arabs. But if I had a brother and he wanted to be an Islamist, I'd like to know why the devil he chose that religion of all the religions in the world.

Very well. Good to know. And I feel you on the Islams. I was very sketchy of them until I deployed to Iraq years ago and met some that were veyr good down to earth people. There are still some crazies like out here in afghan, but there are good ones too.

Quote:1. Religion is cultural.

I see no problem with culture, I even appreciate the small regional nuaces of it. If all theists conformed to that notion it would be fine. Its when detrimental dogmas are thrown into the mix, confusing belief with reality that bugs me. Otherwise, fine by me.

Quote:2. I don't like to be a rebel.

I do, I guess its a matter of choice or upbringuing, dunno. You don't wanna see me pissed off, and if you ever see me pissed off and drunk, run, run as fast as you can

Quote:3. My emotions are stirred in a funny way during holy rituals.

As important as emotions are to our cognitive processes, they are greatly unreliable. I get that queezy feeling hearing any music I like in silence with a glass of red wine. Just throw in a nice Portuguese Fado, a dark gloomy environment, and a nice red wine glass and you'll see a 32 y.o man with a tear down his cheek. I don't avoid emotions, but, for most part in civil discourse, they stand to no reason, by definition.

Anyway, kudos for your rationalizations, you are by far more honest than most of the usual theists. You remind me of fr0d0 (another CoE member).

(September 1, 2012 at 9:40 am)greneknight Wrote: God is for me a concept. Not a being.

So long as you never side with any practical position that derives its justification from the supposition that god is more than merely a concept, then you are effectively an atheist, albeit it a weak willed one.

(September 1, 2012 at 1:08 pm)Chuck Wrote: So long as you never side with any practical position that derives its justification from the supposition that god is more than merely a concept, then you are effectively an atheist, albeit it a weak willed one.

I agree with most of that chuck, except that I don't think will is needed to be an atheist. It may be needed to overcome indoctrination, but in the cases of those that never been exposed to that, it takes no will, just evidence.

Anyway, best not derail this thread, mabe another thread

(September 1, 2012 at 9:26 am)greneknight Wrote: Most people in the Forum seem to think I'm more an atheist than a Christian. Someone suggested that I should start a thread about my position on what Christianity should be and how I view it. First, I'm not an atheist but I am a Christian.

I'm genuinely shocked. This changes everything.

Quote:Why then do I continue with the faith?

Because you want to. No other reason.

Quote:But the Church of England makes the religion more cultural than superstitious. It's the State church. Our Queen is the Head. A lot of State functions are religious. My school in England is owned by the Church and has performed church rituals for the past 500 years or so. Why change anything?

You're holding the rest of the UK back mate. I'd rather us become a secular nation, but noooo. You have to make appeals to tradition and have your ancient parasitic relics.

Bloody hell England.

I am torn regarding you greneknight.
While on one hand I completely understand your "I do it just because" take on Christianity, I find your favor of the Catholic church to be extremely biased. While on one hand you point out the flaws, contradictions and outright lies of that religion, you compliment the Catholic church on how warm and fuzzy they make you feel, as if they still perform some kind of great service for the world.

This particular thought of yours caught my attention:

(September 1, 2012 at 9:26 am)greneknight Wrote: ... But it's not a bad feeling so why stop it? It feels like something important is happening but in reality, nothing happens. Nothing special or supernatural has ever happened in all my life as an altar boy. But even if it's not true, what's the harm?

To leave the church appears more like an act of disloyalty for me. Why am I embarrassed of my ancestors? True, they believed in a lot of rubbish and were superstitious but that's because they lived in ancient times.

You'll notice, I highlighted your rhetorical questions. I provide an answer with the link below.
Despite the fact that, like you, I choose to believe in something that cannot be proven, I do not go around trying to justify an organization that has been at the heart of human suffering for 1000 years. That is not an exagertated statement. Either you are being obtuse or you are simply unaware of the atrocities committed (and STILL being committed) by your lovey dovey-feel-good church.

Believe in god all you want, but don't try to sell us on some false benign nature of your religion. If there is such a thing as evil on this planet, it was likely perfected by the Catholic church - if not invented.


Click below and have a good read before you downplay the actions of your oh so helpful Catholic Church.

Horrors of the Roman Catholic Church

(September 1, 2012 at 2:22 pm)Cinjin Wrote: I am torn regarding you greneknight.
While on one hand I completely understand your "I do it just because" take on Christianity, I find your favor of the Catholic church to be extremely biased. While on one hand you point out the flaws, contradictions and outright lies of that religion, you compliment the Catholic church on how warm and fuzzy they make you feel, as if they still perform some kind of great service for the world.

This particular thought of yours caught my attention:

(September 1, 2012 at 9:26 am)greneknight Wrote: ... But it's not a bad feeling so why stop it? It feels like something important is happening but in reality, nothing happens. Nothing special or supernatural has ever happened in all my life as an altar boy. But even if it's not true, what's the harm?

To leave the church appears more like an act of disloyalty for me. Why am I embarrassed of my ancestors? True, they believed in a lot of rubbish and were superstitious but that's because they lived in ancient times.

You'll notice, I highlighted your rhetorical questions. I provide an answer with the link below.
Despite the fact that, like you, I choose to believe in something that cannot be proven, I do not go around trying to justify an organization that has been at the heart of human suffering for 1000 years. That is not an exagertated statement. Either you are being obtuse or you are simply unaware of the atrocities committed (and STILL being committed) by your lovey dovey-feel-good church.

Believe in god all you want, but don't try to sell us on some false benign nature of your religion. If there is such a thing as evil on this planet, it was likely perfected by the Catholic church - if not invented.


Click below and have a good read before you downplay the actions of your oh so helpful Catholic Church.

Horrors of the Roman Catholic Church

I'm sorry. You got it all wrong. I'm not Roman Catholic. I agree if I were RC, I'd leave the church. Dawkins himself calls my church a "benign church". He wouldn't have said that of the RC church.

Grene; Mate you are still a Christian because you are 13 and still learning to think critically. Going by your posts,and the way you handed Vinny his head, I think you're pretty bright, so hopefully will be fine in a few years.

Of course,that depends largely on whether you also mature emotionally and no longer need the crutch of personal superstitions to cope with life

Quote: I'm not Roman Catholic.

No ,C of E:


High church Of England is also known as 'Catholic lite'. Instead of a Pope the C of E has another fatuous geriatric in charge, The archbishop of Canterbury. The British monarch is the titular head of the Church of England, but tends to mind her own business.


Visiting high church services in Kings College chapel,Cambridge, one could be forgiven for thinking they were Catholic ceremonies . (a friend had two boys in Kings choir,that's how I got in)

If you don't believe the Bible, what are your beliefs based on?

Also, do you believe that God exists? Cause I can't seem to tell.

Also I am slightly disturbed by the fact that you call yourself a Christian on the grounds that you serve as an altar boy and sing in the choir. Are these things really the most important? I think it more important for your heart to be in it, rather than just doing it, and I see no indication of this in your posts.

Quote:Religion is cultural.

So you go to Church for the culture? You're missing the whole point, that not what Christianity is for. You say you are a Christian, but how? You don't seem to think God exists, then what is the point? To fit in? That doesn't count as Christian. An atheist could very well go to a church and perform the rituals and sing in the choir, but he would still be an atheist because he knows doing it is meaningless and there is no God. You see, just doing the acts doesn't cut it, religion is a set of beliefs.

I actually agree with CBA on this one. Seems like identifying yourself as christian is not really intellectually honest.