(September 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm)elunico13 Wrote: You can't violate without having a freedom to choose.

(September 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Baking soda doesn't choose to react with vinegar.

(September 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm)elunico13 Wrote: That's called chemistry, which is what you believe you are.

(September 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm)elunico13 Wrote: The will of another is unimportant in an evolution worldview.

(September 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm)elunico13 Wrote: No one is under your arbitrary "social contract" and obligated to obey whatever you say.

(September 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm)elunico13 Wrote: No pain no gain, right?

(September 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Why would you love random mutations from pond scum?

(September 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Any other society can arbitrarily assert the opposite.

(September 1, 2012 at 4:25 am)apophenia Wrote:


Okay. My curiosity is aroused. What is God's explanation as to why murder is wrong?



"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments; there are consequences."
— Robert Ingersoll

(August 31, 2012 at 8:50 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:

---

I posted this as a reply in another thread but since this issue comes up all the time, I thought I would reprint the post in its very own thread. Any time theists visit and bring up the moral argument, they can be pointed to this thread.

1. (Perhaps most important) Theistic morality confuses the issues of what morality is and what is moral.

By its nature, religion will be concerned with gaining more followers and gaining increased obedience with its established followers. This is why when you read through the Bible or Koran, often what is described as "evil" are such victimless crimes as idolatry, blasphemy and apostasy. Other moral issues and labeled "abominations" have to do with failure to adhere to rituals and traditions, like not working on the Sabbath or not eating certain kinds of food.

Read the 10 commandments if you don't have time to read the whole Bible. You'll notice that the first four, the one's that Yahweh thought of first and foremost, have to do with religious adherence and not real moral issues. A few deal with how we treat others (don't murder, don't steal, etc) but the majority prohibit victimless crimes. This muddying of the waters is not helpful to our understand of what is moral or what morality is.

By contrast, secular morality focuses on the issue with laser-like precision. Morality is a function of how we treat our fellow sentient beings.

2. Theistic morality provides an "easy out"

When you do wrong in theism, you pray to a god to forgive you or perhaps perform some useless rituals of penance that do nothing to clean up the mess.

When you do wrong as a secularist, you apologize to those you've wronged and seek to make direct amends.

Jesus sacrificing himself on a cross and other blood sacrifice rituals do nothing to clean up any messes.

Newt Gingrich is a great example of how twisted this system of morality and atonement is. He says he doesn't have to answer for his adultery despite being a professed "family values" politician. Jesus forgave him and that's that. Has he apologized to any of his ex-wives?

3. "GodWillsIt" is not an answer

Just as "GodDidIt" doesn't satisfy our curiosity about science, "GodWillsIt" does nothing to help us understand morality. This is an appeal to authority, little better than "Cause I said so".

Compare this with secular morality where things labeled "wrong" or "evil" are activities that involve a victim. Morality can be explained in terms of such useful tools as "the social contract" or in term of our sense of empathy and community. Saying, for example, that slavery is wrong because it violates the rights of others and we would not wish to be treated this way is far more elucidating than "cause big daddy in sky says so".

4. Euthephro's Dilemma

Does GodWillIt because its good or is it good because GodWillsIt?

If GodWills what is good, than goodness exists outside of and independent to God. That which is evil would thus remain so without God.

If things are good in accordance with what GodWills, than this is little more than a might-makes-right system of justice. The rules are just as arbitrary as with any human imposed system. Therefore, GodWillsit wouldn't solve the problems Elunico frets over.

Apologists, typical of their style when in a conundrum, try to make it "both and yet neither". They babble about goodness being ingrained in the very nature of their god. Beyond the fact that this is a bare assertion, it's also viciously circular. "We know that God is good because God is good and so we know that God only wills what is good because God is good."

5. Read the damn Bible already!

Yahweh can't seem to answer no-brainer moral issues that humans have long since solved. Issues like rape, slavery and genocide are ones that Yahweh can't seem to provide a correct answer to.

6. Christianity is a dangerous belief system

Any religion that proposes a good god vs. evil devil system is going to demonize any who are not part of the religion. By process of elimination, any who do not serve the defined good god must be in league with or at least duped by the devil. If you believe your enemy is in league with the devil, you are capable of doing anything to him.

Worse, any religion that proposes a faith-based scheme of salvation is going to push atrocity. After all, if killing a few heathens saves thousands of souls for all eternity, isn't that a good thing. The stakes are as high as they can be if there's a real danger of your children going to Hell for all time. No wonder Christianity has such a violent history.

7. Look at the results

Secular societies do not explode into a fireball of mayhem and murder when they lose their religion. Quite to the contrary, social studies have shown that crime rates fall along with teen pregnancy and other social indicators show that secular societies are happier and better adjusted.

Neither do individuals lose their morality when they lose their religion. I can tell you this from all the ex-Christians I've known.

OK, did I miss anything?

---

(September 2, 2012 at 5:47 am)Godschild Wrote: God is the giver of life, whether anyone likes it or not, since life belongs to the one who created it only the creator has a right to take it. Much like an artist is the only one who has the right to destroy his works.

(September 2, 2012 at 5:51 am)Godschild Wrote: Once again you amaze me in how small your understanding of morality is. Secular morality can be what ever any one person determines at any given time, as long as they have the control to enforce it.

(September 2, 2012 at 7:21 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Perhaps Haydn. Personally for me...it is a case of "Do as you would be done by". ....... Illusion is what religion desperately wants to bring to the table.

(September 2, 2012 at 7:58 am)Haydn Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 7:21 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Perhaps Haydn. Personally for me...it is a case of "Do as you would be done by". ....... Illusion is what religion desperately wants to bring to the table.

I agree , that is the most simplist and fairest approach . But i don't even think that is necessary - i don't believe we conciously set the rules for our own morality , its just there.