(September 2, 2012 at 9:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: greneknight...you are an agnostic soft atheist. Sorry bro - just realize what you are and be honest about it.

We obviously differ in our definition of what makes a Christian. Mine accords with what my vicar and bishop teach. Do you expect a person of my age to go against the definition laid down by my priests and start my own religion? Anyway, I agree with them. So what's so dishonest about that?

(September 2, 2012 at 9:44 pm)greneknight Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 9:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: greneknight...you are an agnostic soft atheist. Sorry bro - just realize what you are and be honest about it.

We obviously differ in our definition of what makes a Christian. Mine accords with what my vicar and bishop teach. Do you expect a person of my age to go against the definition laid down by my priests and start my own religion? Anyway, I agree with them. So what's so dishonest about that?

I don't know about your Vicar or bishop but to most Christians and non-Christians...the following things about you will make you non-Christian:

You believe the bible is made up by people, has immoral teachings, and is full of errors, and not written by God.
You believe it's most likely God doesn't exist in reality, and is merely a conceptual metaphor.

You neither are a Theist (believer in God) nor are you a Christian (believer in the Bible)....

If I asked you, do you believe Jesus existed? You probably would say...you don't believe either way.

You like the religious culture you are in, you served for a long time, and you like the church and you are taking part in it.

Sorry bro...reality is you're an Agnostic Soft Atheist.

If your Church said you were Muslim, would it mean you are Muslim? no bro...

Just be honest to yourself.

(September 2, 2012 at 9:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 9:44 pm)greneknight Wrote: We obviously differ in our definition of what makes a Christian. Mine accords with what my vicar and bishop teach. Do you expect a person of my age to go against the definition laid down by my priests and start my own religion? Anyway, I agree with them. So what's so dishonest about that?

I don't know about your Vicar or bishop but to most Christians and non-Christians...the following things about you will make you non-Christian:

You believe the bible is made up by people, has immoral teachings, and is full of errors, and not written by God.
You believe it's most likely God doesn't exist in reality, and is merely a conceptual metaphor.

You neither are a Theist (believer in God) nor are you a Christian (believer in the Bible)....

If I asked you, do you believe Jesus existed? You probably would say...you don't believe either way.

You like the religious culture you are in, you served for a long time, and you like the church and you are taking part in it.

Sorry bro...reality is you're an Agnostic Soft Atheist.

If your Church said you were Muslim, would it mean you are Muslim? no bro...

Just be honest to yourself.

There can be no doubt we disagree on the definitions. You define "Christian" as a believer in the Bible. That is a shocking definition. Nobody in my country will accept such an obviously fundamentalist Bible-belt definition. The Archbishop of Canterbury has warned parishioners time and again that Christians aren't believers in the Bible. He calls them bibliolaters, as in idolaters. In my church a Bible-believer is a heretic.

It's the same for all Christians in Europe. You are obviously very much influenced by American Christians, many of whom are fundamentalists. That's the sad thing about the USA. All of us are amused that 50% of Americans believe in a 10,000 year old earth or universe or something stupid like that. In my country, they'll put you in a padded cell for such insanity.

Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Give us something to work with grene. So far you have said what Christianity is not, according to your church.

What is it about you that makes you a Christian? What boxes do you tick?

(September 2, 2012 at 9:58 pm)greneknight Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 9:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know about your Vicar or bishop but to most Christians and non-Christians...the following things about you will make you non-Christian:

You believe the bible is made up by people, has immoral teachings, and is full of errors, and not written by God.
You believe it's most likely God doesn't exist in reality, and is merely a conceptual metaphor.

You neither are a Theist (believer in God) nor are you a Christian (believer in the Bible)....

If I asked you, do you believe Jesus existed? You probably would say...you don't believe either way.

You like the religious culture you are in, you served for a long time, and you like the church and you are taking part in it.

Sorry bro...reality is you're an Agnostic Soft Atheist.

If your Church said you were Muslim, would it mean you are Muslim? no bro...

Just be honest to yourself.

There can be no doubt we disagree on the definitions. You define "Christian" as a believer in the Bible. That is a shocking definition. Nobody in my country will accept such an obviously fundamentalist Bible-belt definition. The Archbishop of Canterbury has warned parishioners time and again that Christians aren't believers in the Bible. He calls them bibliolaters, as in idolaters. In my church a Bible-believer is a heretic.

It's the same for all Christians in Europe. You are obviously very much influenced by American Christians, many of whom are fundamentalists. That's the sad thing about the USA. All of us are amused that 50% of Americans believe in a 10,000 year old earth or universe or something stupid like that. In my country, they'll put you in a padded cell for such insanity.

Man, When I visited Europe that is nothing like you're saying. And that wasnt long ago. I was an theist then and got reemed constantly for it by european christians as well as christians in my unit. I think you speak too broadly to justify yourself.

(September 2, 2012 at 10:01 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

(September 2, 2012 at 10:09 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Give us something to work with grene. So far you have said what Christianity is not, according to your church.

What is it about you that makes you a Christian? What boxes do you tick?

First, I will answer MysticKnight:

I think I agree with Bart Ehrman that Jesus was an apocalyptic zealot whose sole desire was to get rid of the Romans. (Can you believe I got banned for just mentioning this in that blasted Christian Forum?)

So, I believe Jesus existed as a man. I don't think the real Jesus gave very good teachings. In all probability, my head tells me that he couldn't have the slightest love for Gentiles like us. He hated Gentiles like any Jewish zealot then (and possibly even today). He believed that even if the Romans killed him, he would return within the lifetime of his disciples and wrest power from the Romans and he'd rule Israel and there'd be peace etc. There is a huge amount of biblical evidence for this view so fundamentalists should really agree with me.

But he got killed by the Romans and that was that. His disciples remembered his words that he'd come back. So before long, the rumour spread that Jesus rose from the dead. Remember this was 2000 years ago and people were insanely superstitious. They started a new religion. But his followers were Jews and they didn't want to do away with their old religion.

Then came St Paul, a Hellenistic Jew who came into contact with mainly Greeks. He decided that things should be made easy for the Greeks. They didn't have to be Jews nor did they have to conform to those tedious Jewish laws. St Paul's church grew because the Greeks wouldn't dream of becoming Jews in the first place. And the Greeks were rich people while the old disciples only had Jewish converts into Christianity and so the church in Jerusalem was poor.

St Paul was plagued throughout his ministry by the fact that he didn't really know Jesus. Notice that in his epistles, St Paul made no mention of Jesus' life on earth because he knew bugger all about that. But he was the richie-poo while the Jerusalem church was poverty stricken. St Paul wanted to give money to that poor church in the hope that he would get some recognition from the real disciples. But they spurned him. Notice in his last epistle, he made a big do about sending them money - asking his parishioners to pray that they would accept the money. Why wouldn't anyone accept money unless they thought St Paul was a heretic?

Anyway, Richie poo's church won in the end. The disciples' church (historians call the Ebionites) died out after some time. Hard for them to get converts. St Paul's church became more and more successful until the Emperor converted and it became the No. 1 religion. By then, any remnants of the real disciples' followers would have been destroyed if they hadn't starved to death in their poverty.

In answer to MysticKnight's question, yes I believe in Jesus. But the Jesus I believe in is not the real racist Jesus who had grandiose beliefs about his own power but the one created by the church over the centuries. It's today's church Jesus that I believe in. The good guy who loves Gentiles and will die even for us. It's that concept of Jesus (evolved over the centuries) that I believe in.

In answer to FallentoReason's question what makes me a Christian. It's because of the following:
1. My baptism
2. I believe in Jesus Christ (as aforesaid) and willing to follow his teachings (actually the teachings the Church imputes to him)
3. I submit to and serve the Church of Christ. It's the same thing. Submit means I follow the teachings of the church which the church imputes to Jesus.

---

(September 2, 2012 at 10:11 pm)CaseyTheAthie Wrote: Man, When I visited Europe that is nothing like you're saying. And that wasnt long ago. I was an theist then and got reemed constantly for it by european christians as well as christians in my unit. I think you speak too broadly to justify yourself.

What church did you visit in Europe and whereabouts in Europe was it? Of course there are pockets of fundamentalists everywhere.

greneknight Wrote:St Paul was plagued throughout his ministry by the fact that he didn't really know Jesus. Notice that in his epistles, St Paul made no mention of Jesus' life on earth because he knew bugger all about that.

In fact, Paul knew so little that he didn't even realise Jesus had supposedly been crucified on earth. Remember, Paul keeps referring to the mysteries that were made known to him through the prophets and the spirit. NEVER does he refer to worldly events.

---

As for your justification of you being a Christian; I can see where you're coming from. I still find your belief odd because you and I are fairly similar compared to a True Christian™ but yet you put faith in what you know is (in a nutshell) a fabrication. As you wish, I suppose.

@ greneknight, 14 well little one you have miles to go so do not get in a hurry, you're thinking is all wrong if you are really looking for the truth. You have already eliminated thins you need in your life to make decisions, you should gather up all you have condemned to trash, it could be it is where you will find the truth. Anyone who eliminates any of the possibilities at your age is in for disappointment in their future. Just some advice, what you do with it is your business.

G-C gets very upset when people dismiss his silly fairy tales.

Ignore him.