(September 4, 2012 at 1:22 pm)elunico13 Wrote: By what standard is your brain fully develpoed? Did evolution stop? If not, then you don't know that your brain is in a sociopathic state.

Thanks, I know the terms I'm using. Unlike you, apparently, because by 'developed', I'm referring to the development of my own, individual brain, not anything to do with evolution.

My brain is not in a sociopathic state because I know these definitions, can compare or have compared my behavior to these definitions, and extrapolate the results. I know the concept of deriving results from observation and evidence is alien to you, but humor me.

Also, you completely dodged the second part of my post. Your morality is derived from a holy text which permits and encourages many terrible crimes. Where do you get off criticizing my morality as subjective when your "objective" morality encourages you to rape, murder, pillage, destroy and commit genocide?

My morality may be subjective, yours is rooted in what almost anyone would agree to call evil, if they were "objective" about what's in that work of fiction.

(September 4, 2012 at 4:12 am)genkaus Wrote:

(September 4, 2012 at 2:05 am)Godschild Wrote: Why in secular morality is murder considered immoral, why can't it be considered moral?

Because, there is not rational or logical reason to consider it so.

(September 4, 2012 at 2:05 am)Godschild Wrote: There are those who do not think murder is immoral, why should they have to be forced to live by the morality of the majority.

Majority is irrelevant. Murder would still be immoral even if majority were in favor of it.

(September 4, 2012 at 2:05 am)Godschild Wrote: All the atheist and nonbelievers I've spoken to do not believe they should have to live by God's moral code, necessarily, yet the majority in this country believe that God's moral code is better than the rest.

Thus proving the point that the opinion of majority is irrelevant to secular morality otherwise everyone in your country would be forced to live by god's moral code.

You have not answered the question only danced around it.

(September 4, 2012 at 2:21 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(September 4, 2012 at 1:22 pm)elunico13 Wrote: By what standard is your brain fully develpoed? Did evolution stop? If not, then you don't know that your brain is in a sociopathic state.

Thanks, I know the terms I'm using. Unlike you, apparently, because by 'developed', I'm referring to the development of my own, individual brain, not anything to do with evolution.

My brain is not in a sociopathic state because I know these definitions, can compare or have compared my behavior to these definitions, and extrapolate the results. I know the concept of deriving results from observation and evidence is alien to you, but humor me.

Also, you completely dodged the second part of my post. Your morality is derived from a holy text which permits and encourages many terrible crimes. Where do you get off criticizing my morality as subjective when your "objective" morality encourages you to rape, murder, pillage, destroy and commit genocide?

My morality may be subjective, yours is rooted in what almost anyone would agree to call evil, if they were "objective" about what's in that work of fiction.

Sorry about dodging the second part. Since there are terrible crimes in the bible then you should be able to tell me why they're terrible.

BUT first we have a problem with the validity of your brain, which is a huge hurdle we must get over in order to continue. I don't doubt your intelligence. I believe you're made in the image of God and therefore able to reason logically.

You said you KNOW definitions and can COMPARE your BEHAVIOR to these definitions. You can EXTRAPOLATE , DERIVE and OBSERVE also. But the very thing that can do these things is the very thing in question in the first place. Your brain.

How do you know your brain is fully developed and not in a sociopathic state? "My brain tells me".

Uh Oh! Do you see the problem here???

(September 4, 2012 at 2:05 am)Godschild Wrote: Why in secular morality is murder considered immoral, why can't it be considered moral? There are those who do not think murder is immoral, why should they have to be forced to live by the morality of the majority.

DP Wrote:...and here we go again. How many times is this? Do I get a prize for repeating it for the 100th time? Maybe then it will sink in?

Murder is morally wrong because it violates the will and rights of another. We as community beings that humans are, live and survive by a social contract. Those who would want to be able to murder others without being murdered themselves are in violation of that social contract and guilty of hypocrisy. Additionally, we are empathetic beings, we feel one another's pain and would not want such pain visited upon us.

What I wrote about is a far better explanation of what morality is than what the Christians offer "cause big invisible sky daddy sez so" which is nothing more than an appeal to authority and might-makes-right. In your case GC, you have said you are quite comfortable with your god making up rules and enforcing them arbitrarily, but this is not morality at all.

Your argument could be applied to the morality of scripture, yet you do not recognize the morality given to us though scripture. You seem to be the hypocrite here. God did not make up arbitrary rules, He gave us a moral code to live by because it is good for us, whether we like it or not. That law has not changed other than to grow in number because man could not obey the ones that were originally laid out for us.
God gave us these laws to show us how pitiful we are and that without a savior we would find ourselves in dire straits.

Gc Wrote:All the atheist and nonbelievers I've spoken to do not believe they should have to live by God's moral code, necessarily, yet the majority in this country believe that God's moral code is better than the rest.

DP Wrote:How many of them know what that moral code even is? How many have read Leviticus or the rest of the Bible? Of those who do, what does it mean to live by Yahweh's laws and yet disregard them at will because "Jesus died for that."?

That's the very thing I've been saying, nonbelievers do not try and reason out scriptures, all they want to do is try and find fault with them, how unfortunate.

(September 4, 2012 at 1:22 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Serial killers excert the exact opposite.
I guess you're fine with pedofilia too. Don't wanna be intolerant, right? lol

Sorry, did you just call whateverist a paedophile? Or as you so eloquently put it "pedofilia" How do you fail so hard when there is a spell checker built in? And aren't you one of those who believe in some fat bastard in a dress watching everything you do?
What is he going to make of such a pathetic ad hom in his name?

(September 4, 2012 at 1:22 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Then I guess you wouldn't seek justice for the violent murder of a next of kin. After all the killer can adopt his relative morality of murder if he wants to. You're not going to say that he's wrong are you lol?
You're actually consistant with the evoltution worldview if you believe this. Congratulations!

wtf?? Are you talking about law, or Morality? Do you even know the difference? Are you going to address any points brought up by anyone anytime soon? What fucking evolution world view?
Answer this: Is Morality subjective or absolute?
B

(September 5, 2012 at 12:02 am)Brunitski Wrote:

(September 4, 2012 at 1:22 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Serial killers excert the exact opposite.
I guess you're fine with pedofilia too. Don't wanna be intolerant, right? lol

Sorry, did you just call whateverist a paedophile? Or as you so eloquently put it "pedofilia" How do you fail so hard when there is a spell checker built in? And aren't you one of those who believe in some fat bastard in a dress watching everything you do?
What is he going to make of such a pathetic ad hom in his name?

(September 4, 2012 at 1:22 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Then I guess you wouldn't seek justice for the violent murder of a next of kin. After all the killer can adopt his relative morality of murder if he wants to. You're not going to say that he's wrong are you lol?
You're actually consistant with the evoltution worldview if you believe this. Congratulations!

wtf?? Are you talking about law, or Morality? Do you even know the difference? Are you going to address any points brought up by anyone anytime soon? What fucking evolution world view?
Answer this: Is Morality subjective or absolute?
B

You're not mad at me are you?

Absuloot

(September 4, 2012 at 11:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: Your argument could be applied to the morality of scripture, yet you do not recognize the morality given to us though scripture. You seem to be the hypocrite here. God did not make up arbitrary rules, He gave us a moral code to live by because it is good for us, whether we like it or not. That law has not changed other than to grow in number because man could not obey the ones that were originally laid out for us.

Oh, let's discuss 'scriptural' morality. I'm particularly bothered by a specific display of your god's morality. In scripture, of course, your god is reported to have stopped the rotation of the Earth to allow Joshua his great victory. You must now defend your god's morality. Do you care to describe to the unlearned what your god demanded Joshua's army to do to any human being that wasn't a virgin adolescent? Will you care to tell us what your god said was the fate of the adolesccent virgins?

This is just one example of your 'god-given' morality, yet you yell PERSECUTION when a humble servant of humanity suggests a more humane aproach.

(September 4, 2012 at 1:22 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Why should LYING be wrong if we are just a result of random mutations that just happened to convey some sort of survival value?

1. Are you trying to equivocate between the meanings of the word "wrong"? I said, you are wrong as in "your statements don't reflect the reality" and not as in "your statements are immoral". Thus, lying is the same as making a wrong statement - it is wrong by definition. No one is attaching a specific moral judgment to it though.

2. Again we are not "just a result of random mutations that just happened to convey some sort of survival value". What would it take to get that through your thick skull.

3. As to why your lies make you immoral here - that's because in a rational debate, both parties have an implicit contract to stick to the truth. Since this is another version of the social contract that determines morality, you, in acting against it, are immoral.

(September 4, 2012 at 1:22 pm)elunico13 Wrote: Evolution can't prescribe how we ought to behave since it's descriptive.

Whoever said it did?

(September 4, 2012 at 11:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: That law has not changed other than to grow in number because man could not obey the ones that were originally laid out for us.

That sounds like a rather comical god, frankly. What kind of ultimate deity is so inept when it comes to the psychology of its own creation that it can't foresee its faults and correct for them before they occur?

(September 4, 2012 at 11:59 pm)Godschild Wrote: God gave us these laws to show us how pitiful we are and that without a savior we would find ourselves in dire straits.

What I find curious is that this god didn't just make us the way it wanted us in the first place. This god appears not only incompetent but also masochistic.

(September 5, 2012 at 12:27 am)elunico13 Wrote:

(September 5, 2012 at 12:02 am)Brunitski Wrote: Sorry, did you just call whateverist a paedophile? Or as you so eloquently put it "pedofilia" How do you fail so hard when there is a spell checker built in? And aren't you one of those who believe in some fat bastard in a dress watching everything you do?
What is he going to make of such a pathetic ad hom in his name?

wtf?? Are you talking about law, or Morality? Do you even know the difference? Are you going to address any points brought up by anyone anytime soon? What fucking evolution world view?
Answer this: Is Morality subjective or absolute?
B

You're not mad at me are you?

Absuloot

Answer the questions and we'll see...