(September 20, 2012 at 2:01 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: The Nero/Spock incident happened at least a decade after Voyager got back to Earth. Perhaps Romulan intel got access to it? I don't know. This is all just nit picky criticism. Nothing major.

Major enough. None of the canon would support your claims.

The only thing you have, for the public, is some comic book shat out by some turds who decided it was better to rewrite Star Trek.

They made Spock an emotional cripple, instead of the Vulcan equivalent of a Dahar master.

They made the entire bridge crew, to which there is a military standard of protocol, become a bunch of passive bystanders instead of the active and questioning group offered in TOS.

They stick the antagonists in a box, unapparent to the viewer, and then pop them out.

Quote:What does the fact that it's from Enterprise have to do with anything? What does the STD thing have to do with anything?

Only to illustrate T'Pal lost control of her emotions due to P'anar syndrome.

Just like Sarek lost control of his emotions due to Bendii Syndrome.

So, in other words, you're gonna hand wave away everything we have seen about Vulcans, in favor of Spock outrageously assaulting (and nearly killing!) Kirk.

(September 20, 2012 at 2:01 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: None of the supposed violations of canon are significant anyways.

No, certainly not.

Certainly not over 10 years of established story lines, character development in all the other series.

Certainly not the character development and adventures from Star Trek I to V...

Nope. Nothing of significant has been lost, you must be absolutely correct....

>/

WTF was the deal with the whole Spock/Uhura matchup? That doesn't really fit the Vulcan nature, given what we learned about them from that Pan-Fahr episode.

If a black hole consumed Vulcan, wouldn't that pretty much destroy live on the nearby world where Spock was planted to watch?

And Scotty just so happened to be coincidentally stationed on the same nearby planet ...doing what again?

And if you could create a black hole, why would it be necessary to have this great big laser drill to first dig a hole to the center of the planet Vulcan? You could just create the black hole on the planet surface and it will naturally fall to the planet core. Oh, but then there'd be no dramatic fight scene for Kirk.

(September 20, 2012 at 3:11 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: WTF was the deal with the whole Spock/Uhura matchup? That doesn't really fit the Vulcan nature, given what we learned about them from that Pan-Fahr episode.

If a black hole consumed Vulcan, wouldn't that pretty much destroy live on the nearby world where Spock was planted to watch?

And Scotty just so happened to be coincidentally stationed on the same nearby planet ...doing what again?

And if you could create a black hole, why would it be necessary to have this great big laser drill to first dig a hole to the center of the planet Vulcan? You could just create the black hole on the planet surface and it will naturally fall to the planet core. Oh, but then there'd be no dramatic fight scene for Kirk.

You are trying to hard to pretend the reboot ought to make some sense.

I think star trek fell irretrieveable into a self-parodying swirl pool of nonsense when it was intimated in one of the movies that whales communicated by sound with Aliens separated from us by vacumn.

This, as you know, is much more damning than the Enterprise making a whoosh sound as it speeds by in space.

Really, I thought it was just as damning.

If I recall, Chuck, it was a stupid probe designed to see if humpback whales still lived there.

Apparently whales are never expected to change in the past or future...

In any case, there is a set of bounds for what Star Trek usually does...

And then there's the damn reboot.

(September 20, 2012 at 3:25 pm)Chuck Wrote: This, as you know, is much more damning than the Enterprise making a whoosh sound as it speeds by in space.

That was a creative decision by Roddenberry (I think) to add a sense of dramatic realism, believe it or not. Obviously sound wouldn't carry in space, but audiences are so conditioned to expect the sound of a vehicle going past in everyday life that the lack of it tends to throw the viewer out of the scene. That's also why starships always appear fully or dramatically lighted even when in deep space and nowhere near a light source. Interestingly, the original concept for representing faster-than-light travel on screen was to have the Enterprise become invisible when at warp speed; though probably realistically accurate, it was deemed to look a bit silly. If I remember correctly, the original pilot episode shows how it would have looked.

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As for the whales, yes that is a ridiculous idea which probably would have stood rethinking. However, as Moros said, there is a basic format for Star Trek and even in The Voyage Home, that format was adhered to. Kirk et al behaved faithfully to their character, the technology worked as it was expected to, and so on. Star Fleet Headquarters didn't look like an old brewery because the director thought it'd be a nice idea, for instance; the new Enterprise at the end wasn't suddenly meant to be twice as big as it was designed, for another.

(September 20, 2012 at 2:14 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote:

(September 20, 2012 at 2:01 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: The Nero/Spock incident happened at least a decade after Voyager got back to Earth. Perhaps Romulan intel got access to it? I don't know. This is all just nit picky criticism. Nothing major.

Major enough. None of the canon would support your claims.

It doesn't really contradict the canon either. And so what if it did? It's such a minor issue. You might as well start shouting "canon!" if the new Scotty and Kirk don't end up fat in 20 years.

Quote:The only thing you have, for the public, is some comic book shat out by some turds who decided it was better to rewrite Star Trek.

They made Spock an emotional cripple, instead of the Vulcan equivalent of a Dahar master.

Again, this is a much younger Spock. A Spock who's half human and just watched his whole planet get destroyed along with his mother. He also grew up with racism and discrimination because of him being half human.

Quote:They made the entire bridge crew, to which there is a military standard of protocol, become a bunch of passive bystanders instead of the active and questioning group offered in TOS.

The whole ship was made up of people fresh out of Starfleet because of the emergency situation. And as I said, bystander effect.

Quote:

Quote:What does the fact that it's from Enterprise have to do with anything? What does the STD thing have to do with anything?

Only to illustrate T'Pal lost control of her emotions due to P'anar syndrome.

Just like Sarek lost control of his emotions due to Bendii Syndrome.

So, in other words, you're gonna hand wave away everything we have seen about Vulcans, in favor of Spock outrageously assaulting (and nearly killing!) Kirk.

The Vulcans can be very much controlled by their emotions.
I will quote Memory Alpha:

Quote:Culturally one of the most fascinating species in the Federation, the Vulcans were once an extremely violent and emotional people (even by Earth standards) who waged almost constant warfare on one another. (TOS: "Balance of Terror") They believed in a variety of gods, such as war, peace and death. (TNG: "Gambit, Part II") As their level of technology improved, the Vulcans eventually reached a point where their violent nature threatened species extinction. (ENT: "Awakening")


Surak, father of Vulcan logic
In an effort to avoid this fate, a Vulcan named Surak developed a new philosophy thereby igniting the Time of Awakening. Surak maintained that the root cause of all the problems on Vulcan lay in the uncontrolled outpouring of the people's emotions. His followers swore to live their lives by an ethical system devised by Surak and based purely on logical principles. Emotions were to be controlled and repressed. (TAS: "Yesteryear")

Quote:

(September 20, 2012 at 2:01 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: None of the supposed violations of canon are significant anyways.

No, certainly not.

Certainly not over 10 years of established story lines, character development in all the other series.

Certainly not the character development and adventures from Star Trek I to V...

Nope. Nothing of significant has been lost, you must be absolutely correct....

>/

How many times do I have to explain this? This is a new timeline! Nothing has been "lost." That's part of the old timeline.

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(September 20, 2012 at 3:11 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: WTF was the deal with the whole Spock/Uhura matchup? That doesn't really fit the Vulcan nature, given what we learned about them from that Pan-Fahr episode.
...

First of all, Spock is half human. T'Pol was in a romantic relationship with Trip on ENT anyway so nothing new.

Minimizing my protests at the outside-of-normal-star-trek-canon-expectations developments as "minor" reeks of apologetics.

Also, you're moving the goal posts.

I pointed out that Vulcans depicted in the series only lost composure due to unusual circumstances.

And you fire back with "Long ago..."

That is irrelevant -- we are speaking to the portrayal of Vulcans on the actual television shows and movies. Their backstory is used as an explanation for their stone-faced exterior.

Still doesn't justify half-human Spock acting like a Terran and almost beating Kirk to death.

Dress the pig up however you want, it's still lipstick on a pig.

Bad writing is bad writing.

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Another thing too -- why does Spock lose emotional composure and someone like Sisko didn't?

By all means, Sisko comes into contact with the man who murdered his wife and crew during Wolf-359 and "recovered" from Borg infestation. You can clearly see him steeled, cold and angry at Picard, the man responsible for it all.

Now, true, that is months later in the time line.

But you really want me to believe that Spock, with all his years of emotional suppression, will go ape-shit at the slightest provocation just after witnessing his mothers death while a full blooded terran coming face-to-face with his wife's murderer can control himself?

I feel a little amiss at this incredible humanizing of Spock to the point he is no longer Spock.

Hell, the great feud between Shatner and Nimoy started because Spock was an instant hit with the ladies due to his "ungettable" nature. His entire character definition revolved around his distaste for letting his human side get to him. It was a running joke on TOS, where Kirk would try to point out his human qualities, much to Spock's distaste.

Zachary Quinto is an excellent actor, but I don't see the growth between him and Nimoy during TOS.

I cannot see the transition between beating Kirk to a pulp on the bridge and the Spock in TOS. Not at all.

And that is the hardest thing you've asked me and other Star Trek fans who grew up with this stuff to swallow.

Star Trek 2009 is a pretender to the throne of Trek. And an imposter will never be welcomed to I and others.

(September 21, 2012 at 1:36 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: Minimizing my protests at the outside-of-normal-star-trek-canon-expectations developments as "minor" reeks of apologetics.

Also, you're moving the goal posts.

You haven't shown why Romulans using Borg technology necessarily entails an unavoidable contradiction to canon. The event happened at least 10 years after Voyager. There's plenty of wiggle room for writers, or... you know that thing called IMAGINATION.

Quote:I pointed out that Vulcans depicted in the series only lost composure due to unusual circumstances.

And you fire back with "Long ago..."

That is irrelevant -- we are speaking to the portrayal of Vulcans on the actual television shows and movies. Their backstory is used as an explanation for their stone-faced exterior.

Their backstory is part of canon. It was mentioned in several Star Trek episodes. And now you're unfairly quarantining the "canon" to only that of Star Trek written from 1966 (or 64 if you include the pilot) to 2005. New things cannot be made canon after 2005?! If there was a TNG episode that had a Vulcan getting angry, you'd be ok. But since there are new writers now in control, they can't have the same freedom?!

Quote:Still doesn't justify half-human Spock acting like a Terran and almost beating Kirk to death.

I've offered plenty of reasons why that could happen. You're just being willfully ignorant.

Quote:Another thing too -- why does Spock lose emotional composure and someone like Sisko didn't?

By all means, Sisko comes into contact with the man who murdered his wife and crew during Wolf-359 and "recovered" from Borg infestation. You can clearly see him steeled, cold and angry at Picard, the man responsible for it all.

Sisko is fully human. And as I explained Vulcans can be more easily controlled by their emotions if they don't undergo their traditional training. This is not a fair comparison.

Quote:But you really want me to believe that Spock, with all his years of emotional suppression, will go ape-shit at the slightest provocation just after witnessing his mothers death while a full blooded terran coming face-to-face with his wife's murderer can control himself?

Yes.

Quote:I feel a little amiss at this incredible humanizing of Spock to the point he is no longer Spock.

Hell, the great feud between Shatner and Nimoy started because Spock was an instant hit with the ladies due to his "ungettable" nature. His entire character definition revolved around his distaste for letting his human side get to him. It was a running joke on TOS, where Kirk would try to point out his human qualities, much to Spock's distaste.

Quote:I cannot see the transition between beating Kirk to a pulp on the bridge and the Spock in TOS. Not at all.

And that is the hardest thing you've asked me and other Star Trek fans who grew up with this stuff to swallow.
...

Compared to other Vulcans, Spock always had a bit of a human personality in TOS and especially in the first six movies. And you're comparing two different Spocks, one Spock who never lost his home planet, and one who had and also got to meet a much older and wiser version of himself.

Obviously, things are going to be a little different. I don't expect it to very different however.

(September 21, 2012 at 3:55 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: You haven't shown why Romulans using Borg technology necessarily entails an unavoidable contradiction to canon. The event happened at least 10 years after Voyager. There's plenty of wiggle room for writers, or... you know that thing called IMAGINATION.

There is also something called making bullshit up and shoveling it into others mouths...

As I said, Seven of Nine adapted Borg Technology to Voyager for their use.

The rest was done de novo by the Federation.

Remember Arturus's Quantum Slipstream drive (the plot device so powerful the writers invented a horrible destabilization with?)? Voyager reimplemented that stuff from scratch.

(September 21, 2012 at 3:55 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Their backstory is part of canon. It was mentioned in several Star Trek episodes. And now you're unfairly quarantining the "canon" to only that of Star Trek written from 1966 (or 64 if you include the pilot) to 2005. New things cannot be made canon after 2005?! If there was a TNG episode that had a Vulcan getting angry, you'd be ok. But since there are new writers now in control, they can't have the same freedom?!

You're full of shit.

I cited a Vulcan committing violence in Sarek (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sarek_%28episode%29), however indirect.

It validates the backstory without him going apeshit.

Next point: Spock attacking Kirk due to influence by Omicron Ceti III spores (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/This_Sid...episode%29).

It is pathetic that you must resort to painting me as some freedom restrictor, when I'm objecting to the new writers sticking their goddamn dick into the franchise and calling it warp speed!

(September 21, 2012 at 3:55 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: I've offered plenty of reasons why that could happen. You're just being willfully ignorant.

Apologetics again!

I've got a consistent set of storylines, character development and plot that backs up a preponderance of evidence for the Vulcan character reacting in a particular manner.

All you can do is come up with HUMAN answers, not answers constrained to what we have WRITTEN about VULCANS.

Keep your Terrans and Vulcans straight.

Or can you?

(September 21, 2012 at 3:55 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Sisko is fully human. And as I explained Vulcans can be more easily controlled by their emotions if they don't undergo their traditional training. This is not a fair comparison.

But you feel justified in coming up with a human reaction to a Vulcan tragedy.

How about another data point, when Spock heard the deaths of his fellows during the Immunity Syndrome (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Immu...episode%29).

What did he do?

He partially collapsed, exhausted, showing a shocked expression. He sounded worn, tired.

That is how Spock reacted to death on a large scale that he could hear telepathically -- a little bit like Obiwan Kenobi needing to sit down after Alderaan is destroyed.

(September 21, 2012 at 3:55 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Compared to other Vulcans, Spock always had a bit of a human personality in TOS and especially in the first six movies. And you're comparing two different Spocks, one Spock who never lost his home planet, and one who had and also got to meet a much older and wiser version of himself.

Obviously, things are going to be a little different. I don't expect it to very different however.

That's a lie on the older and wiser part.

I have cited the Spock FIVE YEARS from the supposed Star Trek (2009) movie taking place in the time line.

I have cited his fellow Vulcans and their reactions.


In essence, I keep on citing entire episodes.

The burden of proof is on YOU, tegh, to explain the redevelopment of Spock and his actions.

And so far, my citations outweigh yours and my tracing of analogous events has been far larger than yours.

You're just a Star Trek (2009) Apologist...

(September 21, 2012 at 4:10 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: In essence, I keep on citing entire episodes.

The burden of proof is on YOU, tegh, to explain the redevelopment of Spock and his actions.

And so far, my citations outweigh yours and my tracing of analogous events has been far larger than yours.

You're just a Star Trek (2009) Apologist...

Please, see a doctor before you guys start to recount all the episolds in the form of chapter and verse, or in iambic pentameter.