Drich Wrote:

Quote:The problem is, scientists don't look for evidence of god, nor do they avoid it.

you would like to think so.

And you would like to think not...



Why? Why do you assume that there is a god? Why couldn't the laws of nature exist without a god? Replace god with santa in the previous quote and you will see how little evidence you have for your assertion.



Are you trying to say that Moses was so vastly unimportant to the world, despite what the bible claims he did, that there would be no evidence of his existance or of any of his actions?



Glad we cleared that up. You actually believe that Noah's Ark could have possibly happened? And you think that pastors who do are in the majority, and are therefore credible? Now I know I don't have to take what you say seriously.



Why is it still a part of the christian bible, then?



Don't you think that if you never found him it would be more likely that he doesn't exist and you just wasted your whole life? Also, you aren't denying that some people will never 'find god' no matter how long they look.



First, argument from age. Second, why do you not believe other religions when they tell you the same thing? No one 'discovers god' they only think they do. Why, I ask, does god value belief over worship? If he made himself known, then he could seperate non-believers into those who are truly loyal, but simply couldn't find him and those who are not. People joining for self-preservation wouldn't be an issue because god would know this already.

Drich Wrote:

Quote: We cannot verify this. For someone who believes, they can easily convince themselves that any sign is god contacting them, whereas a skeptic would write it off as a natural event

One event maybe, but a series of these types of events over a life time is

not. More confirmation bias.

Drich Wrote:Actually I am saying never mind the issue you bring up because it does not reflect the topic you claim you want to discuss. What you have done is approached biblical Christianity from a roman catholic foundation. Which only accounts for about 1/3 of the world Christian population. You are tring to compare apples to oranges. The primary reason being is a biblical based Christianity starts and stops with in the pages of the bible. The R/C church starts and stops on what the men who wear the biggest hats in that religion thinks. Not really the same thing.

Why do you claim superiority over the people that preserved the very thing you practice today?

(October 1, 2012 at 12:57 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

Quote:Why? Why do you assume that there is a god?

Because i have tested God in the way He says we may test Him and I found Him.

Quote:Why couldn't the laws of nature exist without a god? Replace god with santa in the previous quote and you will see how little evidence you have for your assertion.

"a Rose by any other name would be just as sweet." -Juliet

Quote:Are you trying to say that Moses was so vastly unimportant to the world, despite what the bible claims he did, that there would be no evidence of his existance or of any of his actions?

Are you being obstinate or just that uninformed about recorded history durning that time period? If not the Jews who (As in what culture) would have written anything about Moses? The Egyptians did not record failures entire segments of their history have been destroyed whole primiads have been torn down block by block because of their hatred of failure. So who outside of egypt could have written anything about Moses besides the Jews? Then who cared enough to do so in that time period? You observation fails because you assume (wrongly) that human history was recorded for posterity as it is now, and that there was a world wide effort to document great events. When in fact if one were to honestly at what has survived we see little more than nations dated propaganda.

Quote: Glad we cleared that up. You actually believe that Noah's Ark could have possibly happened? And you think that pastors who do are in the majority, and are therefore credible? Now I know I don't have to take what you say seriously.

Yes, appearently you missed my first two weeks here on this website.

Quote:Why is it still a part of the christian bible, then?

Because we worship the same God. just in a different way. We need to understand both to know why there was a change, and what that change means for us.

Quote:Don't you think that if you never found him it would be more likely that he doesn't exist and you just wasted your whole life?

Waisted? no. Not unless I had planned to live for myself drinking and whoring my time away.

Quote:Also, you aren't denying that some people will never 'find god' no matter how long they look.

As their results are directly tied to the condition of their hearts as God tells us, and as a man's heart is a variable I can not account for then it is obvious to me that many who will go through the motions of "A-S-K" (Ask Seek Knock) will not find anything. God has promised to give to those who make the effort mirriored in Luke 11. Not their personal version of what God outlines in Luke 11.

Quote:First, argument from age. Second, why do you not believe other religions when they tell you the same thing

I have studied many of the other religions and none offer what Christianity does. Islam offers reward, and indulgance. Buddhisim offers enlightment, and a greater sense of awareness. Mormonism offer one the status of a god, to rule over and populate your own world. Hinduism offers a better life. Only Christianity offers a one on one relationship with the Living God for eternity.

Quote:No one 'discovers god' they only think they do.

Indeed God reveals Himself to people.

Quote:Why, I ask, does god value belief over worship?

Because worship without belief is meaningless. God does not care about the motions of worship but the condition of one's heart that drives Himself to worship.

Quote:If he made himself known, then he could seperate non-believers into those who are truly loyal, but simply couldn't find him and those who are not. People joining for self-preservation wouldn't be an issue because god would know this already.

I see the wheels turning this is good! but think about it a little more. God can already do this now. (Choose who will choose Him) So if our lives are not meant to allow God to Choose which one of us will choose Him. Then that means our lives were meant for us to know what or who we would choose for eternity.

How do I know? because I was judged (durning my time as an Atheist) and knew without doubt that Christ's judgement was fair and righteous.http://www.christianforums.com/t7474493/ post number 6

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(October 1, 2012 at 8:22 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: [quote="Drich"]Actually I am saying never mind the issue you bring up because it does not reflect the topic you claim you want to discuss. What you have done is approached biblical Christianity from a roman catholic foundation. Which only accounts for about 1/3 of the world Christian population. You are tring to compare apples to oranges. The primary reason being is a biblical based Christianity starts and stops with in the pages of the bible. The R/C church starts and stops on what the men who wear the biggest hats in that religion thinks. Not really the same thing.

Why do you claim superiority over the people that preserved the very thing you practice today?

You awarded the title of 'superiority.' i simply pointed to the differences to why your arguements fail with 2/3's of Christianity.

(October 1, 2012 at 8:56 pm)Drich Wrote: "a Rose by any other name would be just as sweet." -Juliet

Evidently the latter (badly uninformed). Nonetheless, there is still isn't archeological evidence that the Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians.



Is that really what you think atheists do, drink and whore their time away?



So what you're saying is that 1. we can't convince ourselves that god exists until we have [strong] faith in him, and 2. You picked the religion that offered the best reward, in your opinion?



But if I already don't believe, then my worship will be meaningless, so he won't reveal himself, so...kinda locked the keys in the car, huh?


(bolding added)
I don't know what you mean in that sentence. I think you mean to say that god doesn't reveal himself to all people, but if that is the case, then why does he expect us all to believe? Why won't god reveal himself in a way that wouldn't allow for relatively simple alternative explanations? Is he deliberately concealing himself?
If you don't believe in evolution (I don't know if you do) then god must be doing a really good job of obscuring his existence. Also, I wonder how it is that you take the story of Noah's Ark to be literal. It is one of the least believable bible stories in my opinion and if you take it to be literally true then you appear to have too much faith, blind faith even. The best explanation I could find was:

I give up on this thread, Drich.

Bottom line is that you're content with using the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove...

and it's just doing my head in, ya know?!

(October 1, 2012 at 11:22 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I give up on this thread, Drich.

Bottom line is that you're content with using the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove the thing you're trying to prove to prove the thing that you're using to try and prove...

and it's just doing my head in, ya know?!

I can't offer any more than what God has offered you. If you do not like what is offered or how it is packaged then talk to God about it.

(October 1, 2012 at 11:41 pm)Drich Wrote: I can't offer any more than what God has offered you. If you do not like what is offered or how it is packaged then talk to God about it.

God hasn't offered me anything. I can't talk to him about it. I used to try, but he never answered back.

At least 70% of the OT is basically a history book written/compiled during the Persian Age (post-Iron Age). It was based off the histories of the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

The rest is divided between prayers to God, words of wisdom, and knowledge revealed to the Prophets from God.

(October 1, 2012 at 10:56 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Evidently the latter (badly uninformed). Nonetheless, there is still isn't archeological evidence that the Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians.

The Hebrew people were wards of the state, meaning they were not citizens of eygpt, and yet they were provided for by egypt. as a result they were made to work for their status. Kind of a working welfare, and not nessiarily a slaves.

Quote:Is that really what you think atheists do, drink and whore their time away?

That's what I did with my time as an atheist yes.

Quote:So what you're saying is that 1. we can't convince ourselves that god exists until we have [strong] faith in him,

no.

Quote: and 2. You picked the religion that offered the best reward, in your opinion?

Eternal life is not the reward. we do not know what the reward is, outside of being with God. Honestly the muslim reward sounds a bit more self indulging.. Unless you were one of the 70 virgins offered to someone else.

Quote:But if I already don't believe, then my worship will be meaningless, so he won't reveal himself, so...kinda locked the keys in the car, huh?

All it takes to get them out is the smallest amount of faith. Christ compared this faith to the size of a mustard seed. If you can come up with this minimal effort then God will move the mountains of doubt that obstruct your belief.

Quote:(bolding added)
I don't know what you mean in that sentence.

It means God does not need for us to live out a life span to know who will choose Him. He knew what we would choose before we were created. Therefore our lives are for us to know what we would choose.

Quote: I think you mean to say that god doesn't reveal himself to all people, but if that is the case, then why does he expect us all to believe? Why won't god reveal himself in a way that wouldn't allow for relatively simple alternative explanations? Is he deliberately concealing himself?

again if our lives are for us to know where our hearts want to spend eternity. (With God or eternally seperated from Him.) If were privy to God's presents without doubt without question. then this life would be dedicated to saving yourself from Hell. and when God will Make His final judgement, you would not know if your sentence to Hell would be justified or not. Because you would have earnestly spent your time doing everything you could to save yourself. In otherwords you would not be easily able to seperate self preservation from True Love for God. (which is the goal of this life and the next.)

As it is now God's glory is hidden from us unless we A/S/K for it. allowing those who do not want to be apart of God's plan for eternity the freedom to let their hearts desire mature. So when the final judgement is levied then for the hater of God or the one who just "can not live with an immoral God" they will know without doubt where they stand.

In my "Dream/vision" I stood before Christ and was judged, and all of my 'feelings' for God were made appearent, and then was shown where i should have been. Yes I begged and pleaded for my life and asked for another chance, but in the end when I was cast into the pit I knew I belonged there. (subsequently I also learned what gnashing of teeth was and why that is a scarry/bad thing.)

This life is for us, so we are not left in Hell to wonder for an eternity.

Quote:If you don't believe in evolution (I don't know if you do) then god must be doing a really good job of obscuring his existence.

Don't get us started on that. Here is a link to our last conversations about evolution: http://atheistforums.org/thread-11720.html

Quote:Also, I wonder how it is that you take the story of Noah's Ark to be literal. It is one of the least believable bible stories in my opinion and if you take it to be literally true then you appear to have too much faith, blind faith even. The best explanation I could find was:

In short the story of Noah's Ark is not one of the logistics behind the effort of one man and his family undertook to save the planet and the wildlife from an evil this world has not seen since. the story of Noah's Ark is about the amount of faith one man has and the lengths he would go to serve his God. Which makes the efforts of saving the world from the comming flood an act of God, not the works of man. If the story becomes an act of God then this story is no more 'unbelieveable' than any other found in the bible.

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(October 1, 2012 at 11:52 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

(October 1, 2012 at 11:41 pm)Drich Wrote: I can't offer any more than what God has offered you. If you do not like what is offered or how it is packaged then talk to God about it.

God hasn't offered me anything. I can't talk to him about it. I used to try, but he never answered back.

Then try speaking to one of His customer service repersentitivies

If they weren't really slaves, then why did god send terrible plagues in order to free them?

Drich Wrote:

Quote:Is that really what you think atheists do, drink and whore their time away?

That's what I did with my time as an atheist yes.

It annoys me when some people can't handle not having a big brother watching thm, so they assume that everyone else is like that. On the contrary, god will forgive you for almost anything if you just ask, whereas atheists can't find closure so easily. The short film (posted somewhere on this forum) called "Jesus: Madman or Worse" brings up the fact that being forgiven by god can serve as a replacement to forgiveness from the person you actualy wronged. If you didn't wrong anyone, then there is no need to ask for forgiveness (though many things that hurt no one are still called 'sins')



I'm not saying that you are selfish or self-indulging. What I am saying is that you prefer to be with god over self-indulgence, so, from what I understand, this drove you to christianity, despite the fact that it actually has no bearing on the validity of the religion itself.



I believe that this discussion has already been had earlier (maybe not on this thread). The general conclusion was that 20+ years of religion, and training + a desire to be a pastor weren't worth a mustard seed of faith.

Drich Wrote:It means God does not need for us to live out a life span to know who will choose Him. He knew what we would choose before we were created. Therefore our lives are for us to know what we would choose.

Well, if god already knows who will 'choose' him, then are you saying that god refuses to reveal himself to people who wouldn't follow anyway? Then what about all of the theistic satanists?


By your first sentence, you suggest that god could simply save those who would be faithful if they believed. Perhaps I interpreted you wrong, but it would make the most sense to do it that way, if he won't reveal himself to everyone.



Here's the problem: you assume that god must exist. If someone takes a more neutral stance and A/S/Ks for 20 years and finds nothing, then why is it unreasonable to assume that god does not exist? Those who are desperate to believe will see what they want to, the unbiased will end up not believeing.



How valid is a dream as a sign from god? How about this:http://atheistforums.org/thread-12234.ht...+in+heaven



Exactly, it is no less unbelieveable than anything else in the bible. I know that the story isn't about the logistics, but if the logistics fail, then the story is only a metaphor. The story never said that god gave any aid to Noah other than advance warning, so while the flood was an act of god, the ark and animal collecting were not.

Oh, and about evolution. It cancels creation because it implies a common ancestor, whereas creation says god made many different animals at the same time in their fully evolved (as to 3000 years ago)forms. (You can ignore this last part if you really want to...)