(October 21, 2012 at 9:26 am)Drich Wrote:

(October 20, 2012 at 4:18 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2012/10/19/b...ce-to-God/

nuff said

Good for them. The Boy Scouts is a Christian based organization, and should not cater to some little heathen who's parents want to make a statement through him.

It's said that moslems and peoples of other faiths can join in by having this pledge changed according to their own beliefs, friend. And what if the boy scouts were a communist organisation? Ever thought of that possbility?

(October 21, 2012 at 9:33 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(October 21, 2012 at 9:26 am)Drich Wrote: Good for them. The Boy Scouts is a Christian based organization, and should not cater to some little heathen who's parents want to make a statement through him.

It's said that moslems and peoples of other faiths can join in by having this pledge changed according to their own beliefs, friend. And what if the boy scouts were a communist organisation? Ever thought of that possbility?

Then the kids of commies should be allowed to join, and the rest can pound sand.

That is the best thing about this country. Is the freedom to have clubs that are not all inclusive. Take that away and what would be left is all communist organizations

(October 21, 2012 at 8:31 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: .
Multinational mobility? Wow, I believe that all these multi-national empires who crumbled to dust should demonstrate you how well these actually fare in comparison to a single-national entity.
Mixed-culture/race, or mongrelization only brings about the destruction of peoples and cultures. But that is no problem for places like America, where the system does not try to maintain the different peoples and cultures, but to assimilate them into a single entity of a single culture, language and "race".
In truth, its such ideologies that are the true enemy of the diversity you're so fond of preaching, while we are determined to maintain diversity and cultural richness of the world by drawing keen lines between people of different nationalities and cultures.

We preach peace, you preach war. Because your worldview can only be archived by forcing the different peoples of the world under a single identity through force, just like the Romans, Soviets, Abbasids, Ottomans and other multi-national empires did throughout the past.

I'm guessing you've never lived in America.

Anyway, the more cultures/ethnicities/religions intermarry abd the more secular givernments become the less conflict I think there'll be. Often religion is at the forefront of preventing or at least discouraging this mixing. And if the cost is cultural diversity then so-be-it. Im already saddened by the erosion of restaurant choice, fusion sushi etc. but that's really a small price to pay. Do I care if a restaurant serves Lebanese food or turkish food or Greek food or bulgarian food? No, not really.

My thinking on this has changed since the thread was posted. At first my reaction was irritation and disgust with the Boy Scouts for this policy. And when I did some research on the pledge, I saw that it includes the phrase "To do my duty to God and country..." and I was thinking that it would be interesting to define what the God duties are. But my view changed when I took a closer look at the pledge and BSA's explanation of it. Here it is:

Boy Scout Oath or Promise

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

Duty to God and country,
Duty to other people, and
Duty to self

DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

(the rest is not included as it doesn't address the god issue)

So here's my new thinking. First, this kid joined an organization that is clearly faith based. They don't hide this, and he would have been taught this pledge from his first contact with the Boy Scouts. Second, I wouldn't want my kid to think it's a good idea to go announcing his atheism in a religious setting - just bad manners. Third, their explanation is that "your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God" and I think he could have easily interpreted this to mean that his family-taught knowing of god is that it's an ancient myth and doesn't actually exist, and his duty to god is to not accept the myth, or something similar. In other words, I think he could have remained in the scouts without compromising himself and without making this an issue. It's unfortunate that he'll be denied the benefits of being a scout. So at this point I'm kind of irritated with the kid and his dad for handling it this way.

(October 21, 2012 at 6:47 am)John V Wrote:

(October 20, 2012 at 5:53 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Er...we HAVE an atheist club and you are still allowed to come here.

Sure, subject to your rules, including:
No Preaching
To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with your own theology, philosophy or point of view is not permitted. If you want to preach, get yourself a soapbox in Hyde Park and don't do it here.

If someone violates those rules, you're justified in banning them.

So don't preach. It's boring as all fuck anyway. Especially since you have nothing to back it up.

(October 21, 2012 at 10:28 am)Doubting_Thomas Wrote:

(October 21, 2012 at 8:31 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: .
Multinational mobility? Wow, I believe that all these multi-national empires who crumbled to dust should demonstrate you how well these actually fare in comparison to a single-national entity.
Mixed-culture/race, or mongrelization only brings about the destruction of peoples and cultures. But that is no problem for places like America, where the system does not try to maintain the different peoples and cultures, but to assimilate them into a single entity of a single culture, language and "race".
In truth, its such ideologies that are the true enemy of the diversity you're so fond of preaching, while we are determined to maintain diversity and cultural richness of the world by drawing keen lines between people of different nationalities and cultures.

We preach peace, you preach war. Because your worldview can only be archived by forcing the different peoples of the world under a single identity through force, just like the Romans, Soviets, Abbasids, Ottomans and other multi-national empires did throughout the past.

I'm guessing you've never lived in America.

Anyway, the more cultures/ethnicities/religions intermarry abd the more secular givernments become the less conflict I think there'll be. Often religion is at the forefront of preventing or at least discouraging this mixing. And if the cost is cultural diversity then so-be-it. Im already saddened by the erosion of restaurant choice, fusion sushi etc. but that's really a small price to pay. Do I care if a restaurant serves Lebanese food or turkish food or Greek food or bulgarian food? No, not really.

As if I've missed anything extraordinary by not living in America, I've lived three years in Europe, especially in Germany, where a lot of Turkish immigrants live.
Intermarriage does not end conflicts at all. Here we are, in Germany, where Turks and Germans do intermarry. And what do we have? Nothing. In truth, we have even more conflict. Turkish men marry German women, and after a while, the women take away the kids to live with their own, so that they do not become "Turkish like their father", as if they could become true Germans with the Turkish blood in their veins.
Often, religions here actually encourage mixing. To be honest, you can see the islamists at the front of the "brotherhood between moslems", encouraging moslems of different ethnicities to intermarry.
Religion and politics derived from religion are always against nationalism, and tend to confirm with ideologies like humanism that dreams of uniting mankind. Under that context, I've always labeled politics that derive from religion as left-wing, as they are international, compared to right-wing politics focusing their efforts on a national level.
Besides, the reason you don't care whether a restaurant serves X-food is due to your lack of sophistication and callousness in terms of culinary pursuits, which has nothing to do with multi-culturalism or anything that relates to it. Culture is beyond food. But since the only contact that you Americans get with other cultures is food(probably the kind that is not authentic anyways) you see culture as nothing more than food. Base, simplistic and primitive.
This is why you believe that ethnic and cultural boundaries can be easily discarded, whereas it's not possible to do so unless you deprive a person of a specific ethnicity and culture his contact with his respective kin and culture.

This is what happens in America. When I immigrate to America, I'm asked to leave behind my previous identity for a new one. I become one with the new identity which tells me to discard my culture and tongue, and fully assimilate into the new one. Unless I live in one of the ethnic enclaves of immigrants that every country has nowadays, I have no other choice but to do so.

Why would you leave your identity behind? No one asks you to do this. My family certainly didn't (and keep in mind my family came here at a point in time when they were encouraged to leave their cultural heritage behind). Boogeyman? Do you think that the langauge you speak now is your bloodlines first language? FFS.....

(October 21, 2012 at 11:18 am)Rhythm Wrote: Why would you leave your identity behind? No one asks you to do this. My family certainly didn't. Boogeyman?

And how well do you preserve any distinct traditions practiced by the...whomever you descend from?
However, that's totally besides the point. If everyone did maintain their own seperate identities in the US, you'd now have innumerable ethnic enclaves, where the respective languages of those communities would be official languages, and taught in school, with having their respective flags flying over autonomous parliaments.
It was due to this that you had your civil war, to bring those people under a single national identity, forcing them to discard their old identity for a new one. Obviously, everyone knows from whom they come from, even I'd probably know that I'm a Turk even if I were born and raised in the US, but how well would I be able to maintain our distinct customs in the US? If I were a recent immigrant, well, that would have been probably easier, but I still would have to change my identity to conform with the new one I just took up.

Even in my three years in Germany, I had to overlook many of my own customs and conform with the customs of the Germans, in order to better integrate into society. People of older generations on the other hand could not do this. Therefore, they interacted very little with those other than themselves, precisely because they have not shed their own customs in favor of the integration, and eventually, assimilation process.

Pretty damned well, but if it's besides the point why did you ask?

Quote:If everyone did maintain their own seperate identities in the US, you'd now have innumerable ethnic enclaves, where the respective languages of those communities would be official languages, and taught in school, with having their respective flags flying over autonomous parliaments.
It was due to this that you had your civil war, to bring those people under a single national identity, forcing them to discard their old identity for a new one. Obviously, everyone knows from whom they come from, even I'd probably know that I'm a Turk even if I were born and raised in the US, but how well would I be able to maintain our distinct customs in the US?

LOL, again, your boogeyman example arises from never having lived here. We do teach "immigrant languages" in schools..american english itself is an immigrant language. You will find flags in peoples cars, on and in their houses, at their businesses, tattooed on their bodies.....everywhere. Why would the federal government of the United States of America fly some other nations flag? Nation identity =/= cultural identity (even you don't think this to be the case, or else you wouldn't be pushing for ethnocentric nationalism). You have strange ideas about why the Civil War occurred...and hey, guess what, you can still find those flags flying all over the god-damned place. You'd be able to maintain your distinct customs as well in the US as you cared to (supposing that they weren't illegal...but even then......still as well as you cared to).

(October 20, 2012 at 5:18 am)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: Bigots

In a couple of years he can join one of the military cadets forces and do better stuff cheaper, plus despite having to attend certain church services, I don't think they are allowed to discriminate like this because they are governmental. (Note - country specific to UK).

But you have to pledge allegiance to the Queen, and her role as the head of the church of england.