(October 21, 2012 at 12:22 pm)Akincana Krishna dasa Wrote: Especially in a godless universe, why can't I do - literally - whatever the hell I want?

There are a variety of philosophies that suggest you can.

Wiki "quantum suicide" and follow the various links.

(October 21, 2012 at 10:41 pm)Akincana Krishna dasa Wrote: If these types of circular, question-begging answers satisfy you..... what can I say?

GOOD LUCK.

Okay... Let me put this another way:
Control itself is an illusion. In any form it may present itself. "Control" by the government or police force, derives it's power from the society these entities govern. A government without legitimacy is no government at all, it has power because we believe it does.
"Self-control" is a means by which our human psyches override our baser instincts or impulses, because we have the capacity for reason. Our reasoning allows us to overcome our anti-social, individual desires for a greater or common good and allow for pro-social behavior. Which, in turn, allows us to create something greater than the self, society and civilization. But underneath all of that "self-control" lurks the individualist spirit which seeks to work solely for one's own self-interest. We don't always act on these individual wants and desires because of our capacity to reason and our basic human desire for a sense of belonging.
Even the notion of a singular "self" is an illusion. We are all comprised of various parts of self, some "selves" are more cohesive than others, but we've all experienced moments of a divided self.
We are simply highly evolved, social creatures, in comparison to other lifeforms on Earth. We figured out millennia ago that we have a better chance of survival if we stick together. Religion provided a handy means to bind people together and create a common goal. However, religion has become outdated.
There is no control in the universe, just simple physical laws (which we may or may not fully understand) that all matter must follow. This is not a form of control, because control implies a desire to conquer or dominate. These physical laws just simply are, there is no good or bad or indifference to them.

(October 21, 2012 at 10:41 pm)Akincana Krishna dasa Wrote: If these types of circular, question-begging answers satisfy you..... what can I say?

GOOD LUCK.

You are trying to use logic finally? Isn't this like anti-gun people trying to use a gun?

Btw, you left the safety on. And you're pointing it the wrong way!

(October 20, 2012 at 11:51 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(October 20, 2012 at 3:25 pm)zebo-the-fat Wrote: I visited my 86 year old mother today, she has been suffering for a long time with arthritis in her knees and has difficulty walking. She told me that the minister from her church had visited and said a prayer for her. After watching her walk slowly and painfully around I commented that it didn't seem to have done much good. I got one of THOSE looks, the kind that will curdle milk at 30 paces!

Good for your mother and please tell her I support her and also will pray for her.

I will mention her at the prayer group today.

(October 28, 2012 at 10:03 am)Tnmusicman Wrote: I will mention her at the prayer group today.

Hands up, anyone who thinks we would have been able to know this if we hadn't been told in advance.

Just to clarify: if this prayer group does their thing, in a Universe in which prayer works as advertised, then surely its effects will be recognisable even though the prayee is ignorant of the prayers. It's a bit like the ignore function here in that regard; were I to add you to my list, the only way you can know about it is if I decide to publish the fact.

(October 28, 2012 at 10:17 am)Stimbo Wrote:

(October 28, 2012 at 10:03 am)Tnmusicman Wrote: I will mention her at the prayer group today.

Hands up, anyone who thinks we would have been able to know this if we hadn't been told in advance.

Just to clarify: if this prayer group does their thing, in a Universe in which prayer works as advertised, then surely its effects will be recognisable even though the prayee is ignorant of the prayers. It's a bit like the ignore function here in that regard; were I to add you to my list, the only way you can know about it is if I decide to publish the fact.

---

Matthew 6:5-8

Prayer

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him

---

They used this passage a lot (almost every time, it seems) during the masses at my old church.

Theists advertising their piety.

It's almost as if you are judged by how many Heavenly Referral Points you accrue.

(October 28, 2012 at 10:03 am)Tnmusicman Wrote: I will mention her at the prayer group today.

So how does that work? Does your prayer group ask god to directly violate the laws of physics, or do they just ask him to change his omniscient unchangeable plan via magic woo?

Does any of your group ever get an actual answer, or are they satisfied with the "dial tone" of god? If your "two or more" group gets together, could they take a out-of-focus Polaroid of the holy spirit? The occult followers get those photos all the time, where's yours?

(October 28, 2012 at 8:11 pm)Brakeman Wrote:

(October 28, 2012 at 10:03 am)Tnmusicman Wrote: I will mention her at the prayer group today.

So how does that work? Does your prayer group ask god to directly violate the laws of physics, or do they just ask him to change his omniscient unchangeable plan via magic woo?

Does any of your group ever get an actual answer, or are they satisfied with the "dial tone" of god? If your "two or more" group gets together, could they take a out-of-focus Polaroid of the holy spirit? The occult followers get those photos all the time, where's yours?

The Holy Spirit lives within us, go study scripture and stop asking childish questions.

"in a Universe in which prayer works as advertised, then surely its effects will be recognisable even though the prayee is ignorant of the prayers."


Of course, the same hold true when prayer fails as it usually does because there is no one out there to hear it!