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Quote: If the second assumption is 100% true, then it means he cannot possibly deceive in any way, as that would ultimately reveal that he is mischievous and this love that he has for us could be a mere illusion.
This is a false dichotomy. God can deceive in judgment of sin and rejection of truth:
2 Thes
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
You also fail to factor in that men can delude themselves.
Romans 1
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
A more esoteric point is that you don't factor in Satan and the possibility that he deceives people.
So, you don't have basis to conclude, "Given that when we take the universe he created and we yield results with it that are a cause of the laws of his universe, we can rest assured that the interpretation of the universe is exactly what he willed."
(October 31, 2012 at 12:03 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Jesus existed somehow
This is really saying something about God's properties; that he couldn't control how his word would turn out.
Not if the parts that you believe he "couldn't control" were actually just allegorical parts. Jesus may exist literally having been sent to earth as God incarnate, and "God" may have still created the universe and everything else could just be allegory.
Quote:If we have to deny all the apparent connections between the OT and NT and say Jesus was born indepenent of what the OT says, then that's just a pretty sloppy job of God willing his word into existence.
"God works in mysterious ways". What's "sloppy" or not is subjective.
[quote='FallentoReason' pid='356915' dateline='1351699437']
[quote]I can see a few possibilities stemming from this:
100% allegory
No A&E means no earthly Jesus. Just revelations of him through the spirit. The problem is that we still have those verses that insist A&E were literal humans...not too sure where to go from here.
Jesus existed somehow
This is really saying something about God's properties; that he couldn't control how his word would turn out. If we have to deny all the apparent connections between the OT and NT and say Jesus was born indepenent of what the OT says, then that's just a pretty sloppy job of God willing his word into existence. This isn't very intellectually satisfying, but I guess it could be. I don't know what that even means for the theology then.[/quote]
If these are the only possiablities you can see 'steming from this' then either you do not fully understand the arguement, or 2 you have decided to press onward with your point without addressing the ramifacations of my statement.
[quote]So I'm presomptuous [/quote]Absoultly! because it is from your persumption that you believe that your understanding of the only appologetic that would denounce the existance of God is completely consistant with what the bible actually says. This appologetic aside I ask you to provide the scripture that gives the dates or time frames needed to show the deception you have outlined.
[quote]while as a Christian you readily claim on a whim that you know where the universe came from?[/quote]Actually no. You have not asked me where I thought the universe came from. If you had I would have said I don't know. Or I would have simply said God did it.
[quote] Evolution is evident.[/quote]Your argueing an invalid arguement. Again I point to my arguement on evolution. One does not exclude the other.
[quote] I highly doubt we've misunderstood why we have a tail bone, why snakes have pelvic bones, why our DNA is 98% to that of monkey's DNA, why whales have undeveloped hind legs etc etc. All of this would be deceptive if evolution is wrong. Therefore, through God's will, Genesis is allegorical.[/quote]no.
One more time the theory I put forward in my evolution thread accounts for both creation AND leaves room for evolution. One does not mean the other is implausable.
October 31, 2012 at 2:28 pm (This post was last modified: October 31, 2012 at 2:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 31, 2012 at 12:00 pm)Drich Wrote: The bulk of Genesis 14 is about the lot's captivity. I read Gen 14 and did not see a "born on date." Are you sure you have the right reference. If so then please explain/show it to me.
Oh ffs I have to explain to a "biblical christian" "doing work" that I'm referring the the 14th verse of the creation account in genesis when I'm speaking only of creation?
Quote: In the "Days of creation" There isn't a time line that has been established as to how long 'in the beginning" actually was, nor what took place then, for: 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
This is a statement made part from what happened on "Day one" (The creation of Light.) All of these elements God created "In the beginning" Before light was created on Day one. And again "In the beginning" There isn't a time framed mentioned. So again. No Born on date
"day one" is the born on date, as "day four" is the born on date for the sun and moon, regardless of the expanse of time you wish to invoke the dates have been set (it's important to note here that the text you are defending set them...not I - I had no hand in editing your fables, if I did you'd have a easier time arguing for them), and they are irreconcilable with reality simply by relation to each other, without requiring any number corresponding to our calendar. "Work" harder.
(don't even get me started on how fucked up the list of things that were "born on" day 5 is btw....clearly whoever wrote or inspired this shit was not present on any of these "days", regardless of what number one wishes to attach)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
October 31, 2012 at 3:32 pm (This post was last modified: October 31, 2012 at 3:33 pm by Drich.)
(October 31, 2012 at 2:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "day one" is the born on date,
Look again "In the beginning God creating the Heavens and the Earth" Preceed "Day one." Day One refers to God's first day of Work on the Earth, which was to bring light to this world.
Quote: as "day four" is the born on date for the sun and moon, regardless of the expanse of time you wish to invoke the dates have been set (it's important to note here that the text you are defending set them...not I - I had no hand in editing your fables, if I did you'd have a easier time arguing for them), and they are irreconcilable with reality simply by relation to each other, without requiring any number corresponding to our calendar. "Work" harder.
Actually no. It is on Day four that God called Lights in the "firmament" to govern the day and the night. It does not say when exactly they were created. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV
start at verse 14
October 31, 2012 at 6:26 pm (This post was last modified: October 31, 2012 at 6:27 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"Then God made two great lights". From the version you prefer. The born on date remains (and it remains woefully inaccurate).
Work harder Drich.
(You like a KJV variant now, figured you'd be all about the NIV)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
John V Wrote:This is a false dichotomy. God can deceive in judgment of sin and rejection of truth:
2 Thes
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
???
Am I reading what I think I'm reading? It's almost implied here that God is apathetic towards those that choose darkness, but on top of that he approves of it by selling that lie to us himself???
Quote:You also fail to factor in that men can delude themselves.
Romans 1
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
True, humans are good at self-deception, with over 3 000+ gods ever imagined I'd say you've got a point.
Can you be more specific as to where we are deceiving ourselves? Is it through using God's willed universe to learn about God's willed universe or do we have God's willed word all wrong? Given what I said in the OP, I'd say the latter.
Quote:A more esoteric point is that you don't factor in Satan and the possibility that he deceives people.
So, you don't have basis to conclude, "Given that when we take the universe he created and we yield results with it that are a cause of the laws of his universe, we can rest assured that the interpretation of the universe is exactly what he willed."
If you're suggesting that Satan deceives through the physical world, then I have to conclude God isn't all-powerful or isn't all-knowing. God created Lucifer and he knew what would happen. But wait...you proved before that God deceives and sells the lie like Satan.
Why call him God?
DoubtVsFaith Wrote:Not if the parts that you believe he "couldn't control" were actually just allegorical parts. Jesus may exist literally having been sent to earth as God incarnate, and "God" may have still created the universe and everything else could just be allegory.
That basically brings us back to square one; what is this Original Sin that Jesus is saving us from?
Quote:"God works in mysterious ways". What's "sloppy" or not is subjective.
Works in mysterious ways that are synonomous to his non-existence. That apologetic line is evasive and a cop out.
Sure, the "sloppiness" is subjective, but it nontheless shows God isn't all-powerful and couldn't will his word how he wanted to. Again, this particular property of his seems to be synonomous with his non-existence. In other words, it's the tales of Bronze Age fanatics that we're dealing with, not some divine being.
[quote='Rhythm' pid='357159' dateline='1351722385']
"Then God made two great lights". From the version you prefer. The born on date remains (and it remains woefully inaccurate).
Would you perfer the Hebrew in Gen 1:16
עשה `asah
means Made; as in to appoint.
On the 4th day God appointed or made the sun to rule the Day and the moon to rule the night.
Quote:(You like a KJV variant now, figured you'd be all about the NIV)
(October 31, 2012 at 11:04 am)FallentoReason Wrote:
This is an extension of another thread that I started. I've fully fleshed out the idea and came to a definite conclusion using God himself.
Let's assume the Judeo-Christian god is real. This would imply that he created the universe and the Bible is his inspired word. Therefore, from these two facts, it follows that he cannot exist, as I will show.
The Two Realms
The universe is his creation. Because he willed it into being, it must be a reflection of how he wanted a universe to be like. Therefore, all observations through science (which is merely using nature "against" itself to derive observations and conclusions) must be reflecting the inner-workings of what he set forth in motion.
The Bible is his word. Part of his will was to create beings that he could love. Because of the intricate complexity of love, these beings were given free will, which inevitably meant God would have to reach down and provide a way out of what we caused. Therefore, the Bible was intended to spread the Good News of who we are, what our purpose is and ultimately how much we are loved by the one that created us.
The Conclusions
These are the two realms that God willed. One is the physical world and the other is his word that we can read to make sense of this physical experience. Because God willed the physical world into being, it implies that what we observe must be what he intended the universe to be like. If God also willed the Bible into eventual existence, then again, it implies that he must love us and have that plan of salvation for us. If the second assumption is 100% true, then it means he cannot possibly deceive in any way, as that would ultimately reveal that he is mischievous and this love that he has for us could be a mere illusion. Therefore, he cannot be a deceiver which ultimately means no part of his will can be in apparent conflict.
The Problem
This leads us to the first couple of chapters of his word. It seems like there is an apparent contradiction between the universe he willed and the words he willed into the Bible. Given that when we take the universe he created and we yield results with it that are a cause of the laws of his universe, we can rest assured that the interpretation of the universe is exactly what he willed. This means that the universe really is 13.7 billion years old and that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. What does that mean for the words he willed into existence? Well, because no part of him can be contradicting his own will, it must mean that the interpretation of Genesis has to be allegorical. This implies Adam & Eve weren't literal beings which then means we didn't descend from them.
Dominoes.
This is where the problem begins, as the entire Bible gets knocked down like dominoes from literal history to allegorical interpretation. The 4 000 or so year family tree leading up to Jesus is supposed to be an unbroken series of relatives, but we have just shown that through God's will there was no first couple to start this off. More to the point, Original Sin never physically occurred so what does it actually mean for Jesus to be redeeming us of something that entered the world "through one man"?. Well, whatever Jesus is saving us from, it definitely isn't Original Sin. So, why then does Jesus, i.e. God, say that's exactly what he's doing?
Do-mi-NOES.
God is not a deceiver. From one extremity of his will to another, there cannot be any contradictions. But we have himself telling us through Jesus that he is here to save us from Original Sin. But we logically showed that from the universe he willed it follows that his intention wasn't to take the words he willed literally. Therefore, like Adam & Eve knocking the historicity of the Bible down from creation onwards, Jesus the Christ knocks down God's apparent and logical will in reverse. Jesus' own words makes it seem like God's written word must actually be taken literally.
It seems like God is at war with his own will which to us looks like God is deceiving somewhere along the line. The only way to avoid this is if he willed his own non-existence i.e. there was no Judeo-Christian god in the beginning who willed things contradictory to his own will. More probable though, is that we're dealing with nothing more than Bronze Age superstition.
Now you should know better than take the scriptures and use them in unfounded ways, the Christians here are going to and in this case did call you out. First God willed into existence the materials the universe is made of, note the word made. Go back and read the creation account and you will discover God made all we see, God pleased Himself in His work of art.
Where in scripture does it say God at times does not deceive, I've explained this to you before, or at least I believe it was you. You want to make God deceitful to fit your weak little idea, you missed the mark.
Jesus did not come to vanquish an sin other than the ones we each commit, no one is held responsible for another's sin.
The idea of the age of the universe has come into some scientific troubles, the red shift used to determine distance is being re-examined and very well could be faulty.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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