You're only half correct. There's a lot of things Christians do that are helpful. You have to remember, every church established and embedded in society is a mobile station which is capable of providing help and support to the immediate community in a variety of ways. Whether or not they do it is up to the individual churches, but many certainly do and do their ministries successfully. So don't be so quick to judge grassroot community structures.

If missionary churches want to be more Christian, they should set up camp in areas and help everyone who wants help, not just those who attend their religious services. Some missionaries have their hearts in the right place, but a lot just want those conversion numbers. They should allow everyone to attend their schools, even if they don't attend the mandatory bible classes. They should offer their food and medical services to everyone, rather than just those who go to church. Missionaries typically help those who are interested in converting, not the masses. This is decidedly un-Christian, as Jesus said to love others as you love yourself.

(November 16, 2012 at 12:36 pm)festive1 Wrote: If missionary churches want to be more Christian, they should set up camp in areas and help everyone who wants help, not just those who attend their religious services.

I totally agree.

Quote:Some missionaries have their hearts in the right place, but a lot just want those conversion numbers.

To let you know, the missionaries that our church supports financially (which are not in Africa FYI) are directly involved in the community, and not so much with evangelism.

Quote:They should allow everyone to attend their schools, even if they don't attend the mandatory bible classes. They should offer their food and medical services to everyone, rather than just those who go to church. Missionaries typically help those who are interested in converting, not the masses.

Not the ones that I know. Paul is superintendant at a church-funded community hospital in Nepal. Nepal is a bit like Africa - those who have illnesses like leprosy are typically outcast by their local communities. The hospital is there to treat them, and also provides a chance for genuine fellowship. No one in coerced into converting to Christianity, no one is turned away from the hospital. He's been a missionary there for something like 30 years now, I'd say that shows some pretty damn fine genuine commitment.

why is pastor ted haggard still here?

(November 17, 2012 at 3:09 am)Daniel Wrote: Not the ones that I know. Paul is superintendant at a church-funded community hospital in Nepal. Nepal is a bit like Africa - those who have illnesses like leprosy are typically outcast by their local communities. The hospital is there to treat them, and also provides a chance for genuine fellowship. No one in coerced into converting to Christianity, no one is turned away from the hospital. He's been a missionary there for something like 30 years now, I'd say that shows some pretty damn fine genuine commitment.

Sounds like an awesome guy. The "chance for genuine fellowship" been curing leprosy of late? Thought not. Seems the services Paul offers that are most valuable and most useful to the folks he offers them to are the secular ones. Unless their "treatment" happens to be prayer....which I highly doubt. I've got a buddy that does a similar thing in China (for a similar amount of time). A church in Bradenton, Florida foots the majority of the bill, medical treatment does the majority of the -work-. Of course both your example and my own are anecdotal..and neither can -make right- the examples of religious organizations that hold these services hostage to affiliation.

(November 17, 2012 at 11:18 am)Rhythm Wrote: Sounds like an awesome guy. The "chance for genuine fellowship" been curing leprosy of late?

Leprosy isn't the only illness in Nepal. Cripples are also completely outcast, and many patients at the hospital go on to have productive lives because there are support networks in place to empower people to do so. The church he attends in Nepal is entirely separate to the hospital, the hospital is largely funded by churches outside of Nepal. With that said, if I'm not mistaking the church there does run services inside the hospital as well - but again, nobody forces anyone to go to a church service, it's there for people who want to go.

Quote:Thought not. Seems the services Paul offers that are most valuable and most useful to the folks he offers them to are the secular ones.

Incorrect. Care and compassion is part and parcel of the physical treatment and clinical care. He has reported the last two times to us that he has been in Canberra that their patients often ask why they are so caring to them because they're used to most Nepalese ignoring them (at best).

The care starts with the physical, clinical side at the hospital. There is a real need, however, that these people have for care that goes well beyond this, to establish them as productive members of society - especially as they already see themselves as worthless because that's what their community at large think of them. If Paul's work was concerned solely with the clinical care then it wouldn't be addressing the problem of daemonization of disease. It doesn't stop at the clinical, people are cared for such that they are appreciated and valued.

This is why the hospital is having an impact there. It doesn't change the attitudes of society at large, it simply changes the attitudes of those who suffer physical illnesses such that they are able to see they are valuable and capable.

Now you can argue that secular non-religious people could well go and do exactly the same - and indeed they could. The operative word here being "could". We do it. We don't just know that we "could" do it, we Christians choose to make a difference.

Quote:Of course both your example and my own are anecdotal..and neither can -make right- the examples of religious organizations that hold these services hostage to affiliation.

The services are there specifically designed to address the needs in that place for those people. They aren't a purely clinically designed structure, they're designed for the specific needs. When Paul started there the church was largely persecuted at the time - why do they have better recognition now do you think? Because the government can appreciate clearly the positive work they're doing. Only a tiny fraction of Nepalese are Christians, it wouldn't take much for them to overthrow the movement if they really thought we Christians were there for "our own agenda".

(November 17, 2012 at 9:24 pm)Daniel Wrote: Leprosy isn't the only illness in Nepal. Cripples are also completely outcast, and many patients at the hospital go on to have productive lives because there are support networks in place to empower people to do so. The church he attends in Nepal is entirely separate to the hospital, the hospital is largely funded by churches outside of Nepal. With that said, if I'm not mistaking the church there does run services inside the hospital as well - but again, nobody forces anyone to go to a church service, it's there for people who want to go.

Wait..wait..he isn't connected to the actual medical treatments? He's just there to give them the opportunity to discard one set of stigmas and prejudices for another? Might have to forget about what I said.

Quote:Incorrect. Care and compassion is part and parcel of the physical treatment and clinical care. He has reported the last two times to us that he has been in Canberra that their patients often ask why they are so caring to them because they're used to most Nepalese ignoring them (at best).

Unfortunate, but again, that your friend does not share the stigmas or prejudices of the average Joe Nepali doesn't mean he isn't there peddling his own.

Quote:The care starts with the physical, clinical side at the hospital. There is a real need, however, that these people have for care that goes well beyond this, to establish them as productive members of society - especially as they already see themselves as worthless because that's what their community at large think of them. If Paul's work was concerned solely with the clinical care then it wouldn't be addressing the problem of daemonization of disease. It doesn't stop at the clinical, people are cared for such that they are appreciated and valued.

I thought demons -did- cause diseases? Guessing he doesn't teach that part of the word? Is something about this caring intrinsically religious? Or is this yet another secular service being offered?

Quote:This is why the hospital is having an impact there. It doesn't change the attitudes of society at large, it simply changes the attitudes of those who suffer physical illnesses such that they are able to see they are valuable and capable.

I think the medicine at the hospital probably accounts for a larger majority of whatever impact they have. Sorry.

Quote:Now you can argue that secular non-religious people could well go and do exactly the same - and indeed they could. The operative word here being "could". We do it. We don't just know that we "could" do it, we Christians choose to make a difference.

LOL and indeed I did...and of course, secular charities do exactly this sort of thing. Here, in the US, they do it more than religious charities. Where you're from that might be different, I wouldn't know.

Quote:The services are there specifically designed to address the needs in that place for those people. They aren't a purely clinically designed structure, they're designed for the specific needs. When Paul started there the church was largely persecuted at the time - why do they have better recognition now do you think? Because the government can appreciate clearly the positive work they're doing. Only a tiny fraction of Nepalese are Christians, it wouldn't take much for them to overthrow the movement if they really thought we Christians were there for "our own agenda".

They -are- there for their own agenda (christ need not be mentioned otherwise...not to deliver treatment, not even in caring and befriending these people)..regardless of what good work might be done. Peddle the Mother T bit elsewhere. I'm sure the individuals treated appreciate the treatment, I'm sure they appreciate the care and kind words...but I'm not actually willing to swallow some selfless service line from the export arm of the christian machine. Sorry.

(November 17, 2012 at 9:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Wait..wait..he isn't connected to the actual medical treatments?

He most certainly is. I'm just explaining that it doesn't stop there.

Quote:Unfortunate, but again, that your friend does not share the stigmas or prejudices of the average Joe Nepali doesn't mean he isn't there peddling his own.

Why don't you re-read what I said? He doesn't give patients gideon's bibles and tell them to repent and believe for the end is neigh. Because we - that's the Christians - are providing compassion and care to those in need, they are naturally interested in why we do it. That means they're asking us what our faith is, not the other way around. I know it's difficult for you to accept, but it isn't an operation that seeks to evangelize, it's there to address the needs of those who are outcast and in need of medical care and treatment.

Quote:I think the medicine at the hospital probably accounts for a larger majority of whatever impact they have. Sorry.

You know, if a person is flown in from rural NSW to Canberra for emergency treatment at the hospital - what happens when they're discharged do you think? Yes that's right, they're put out on their own, often with no money in their pocket to even get them home again. This isn't a huge problem for most of us, because most of us can call a friend or family to come and help us - but what do you think happens when someone is unable to do that? No money for a motel or a taxi or anyway to get back home because all their financials are back at home - what happens then? That's right, we the Christians are there to help get them home, the hospital won't even as much as put them up in a hotel or arrange a bus for them back home, they simply discharge them and leave them where they are - they don't even return them back to where they got them from!

Now if we have this problem here in Canberra - one of the wealthiest westernised cities in the world - then don't you think there are many other problems patients have in underdeveloped countries?

Quote:LOL and indeed I did...and of course, secular charities do exactly this sort of thing. Here, in the US, they do it more than religious charities. Where you're from that might be different, I wouldn't know.

And you'll probably find most of those who volunteer for those non-religious NPO's are religious.

Quote:They -are- there for their own agenda (christ need not be mentioned otherwise...not to deliver treatment, not even in caring and befriending these people)..regardless of what good work might be done. Peddle the Mother T bit elsewhere. I'm sure the individuals treated appreciate the treatment, I'm sure they appreciate the care and kind words...but I'm not actually willing to swallow some selfless service line from the export arm of the christian machine. Sorry.

Addressing the needs in communities is not about "our agenda". Again, nobody forces anything upon anyone, they're given the care and treatment they need without any obligation to either give back when they're able, or to join our religion. If it's our agenda, then how come we haven't gone and set up an Anglican church in Nepal? Can you explain to me that one?

(November 17, 2012 at 11:46 pm)Daniel Wrote: He most certainly is. I'm just explaining that it doesn't stop there.

The medical treatment does, which in my estimation, is worth a great deal more.

Quote:Why don't you re-read what I said? He doesn't give patients gideon's bibles and tell them to repent and believe for the end is neigh. Because we - that's the Christians - are providing compassion and care to those in need, they are naturally interested in why we do it. That means they're asking us what our faith is, not the other way around. I know it's difficult for you to accept, but it isn't an operation that seeks to evangelize, it's there to address the needs of those who are outcast and in need of medical care and treatment.

Oh, I read what you said, but I was politely refraining from calling fl;at out BS. Guess that can;t be avoided now. I've provided plenty of aid, both medical and just a helping hand or hug to people in third world shitholes. Never once did the recipient fawn over me pleading for me to explain my faith. Not only did it never happen to me, I've never seen it happen to anyone who was with me...and there were more of us than there are missionaries. All the opportunity in the world..and this little fantasy never presented itself. Your little anecdote and my experience are at odds,...and I find it entirely too convenient for the narrative at hand.

"Oh please, you benevolent man..tell me of your master christ"
(you've been reading your bible too often....)

Quote:You know, if a person is flown in from rural NSW to Canberra for emergency treatment at the hospital - what happens when they're discharged do you think? Yes that's right, they're put out on their own,

Put out alive yes, what was the alternative again?

Quote: often with no money in their pocket to even get them home again. This isn't a huge problem for most of us, because most of us can call a friend or family to come and help us - but what do you think happens when someone is unable to do that? No money for a motel or a taxi or anyway to get back home because all their financials are back at home - what happens then? That's right, we the Christians are there to help get them home, the hospital won't even as much as put them up in a hotel or arrange a bus for them back home, they simply discharge them and leave them where they are - they don't even return them back to where they got them from!

You mean, we. the human beings,. Being a christian is not a requirement for any of this..and I fail to see how a belief in fairies has anything to do with human kindness at all. But to each his own.

Quote:Now if we have this problem here in Canberra - one of the wealthiest westernised cities in the world - then don't you think there are many other problems patients have in underdeveloped countries?

Yep, and one of those problems happens to be "missionary" douchebags with spotty track records spinning glowing yarns back home......

Quote:And you'll probably find most of those who volunteer for those non-religious NPO's are religious.

I think you'll find that there are many religious people in the world. To you this means something, to me it does not. You can;t even handle the notion that you get outspent..lol, you have to find a way to claim it. Okay...okay.

Quote:Addressing the needs in communities is not about "our agenda". Again, nobody forces anything upon anyone, they're given the care and treatment they need without any obligation to either give back when they're able, or to join our religion. If it's our agenda, then how come we haven't gone and set up an Anglican church in Nepal? Can you explain to me that one?

There -are- Anglican churches in Nepal.......and "for where two or three gather" after all.

(November 18, 2012 at 12:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: Oh, I read what you said, but I was politely refraining from calling fl;at out BS. Guess that can;t be avoided now. I've provided plenty of aid, both medical and just a helping hand or hug to people in third world shitholes. Never once did the recipient fawn over me pleading for me to explain my faith. Not only did it never happen to me, I've never seen it happen to anyone who was with me...and there were more of us than there are missionaries. All the opportunity in the world..and this little fantasy never presented itself. Your little anecdote and my experience are at odds,...and I find it entirely too convenient for the narrative at hand.

"Oh please, you benevolent man..tell me of your master christ"
(you've been reading your bible too often....)

What reason do I have to lie to you? I hate liars!

I sometimes have people ask me specifically if I'm a Christian from right out of the blue. That's my experience, deal with it.

Quote:You mean, we. the human beings,. Being a christian is not a requirement for any of this..and I fail to see how a belief in fairies has anything to do with human kindness at all. But to each his own.

I didn't say it's a requirement. I said we do it. There's an awful lot of stuff we do for the community, and I have a passion for doing more as well. Providing services to the community to address specific needs is something the church at large does very well, and without Christianity Australia would loose a lot of services that we provide, that we fund ourselves, and that we give out of generosity and compassion.

Quote:There -are- Anglican churches in Nepal.......and "for where two or three gather" after all.

Not where Paul is there isn't. Again - how come we didn't prioritize setting up a church of our own denomination there? Explain that to me.