(December 1, 2012 at 10:21 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: Vincent stated that he had scientific proof of it being unhealthy. And he didnt.

Of course he doesn't. That would be like having scientific proof of sex being unhealthy.

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(December 1, 2012 at 10:18 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: There's actually a bit of controversy over the meaning of pornea. It's not clear anymore what it means exactly. The best translation of it I've heard is simply "sexual immorality."

That's not a good translation. It's a loose translation and completely wrong. Pornea does not mean anything to do with "morality" it has to do with sex acts, not with morals. "sexual deviants" would be closer to the meaning than "sexual immorality". Pornea would certainly not even include viewing pornography, because it doesn't concern itself with morality.

The only way that you could demonstrate pornea includes masturbation is if you found it to be used to specifically mean masturbate. You could find it in any greek writing from the correct time period. For instance, "I walked into the room, and he was there all alone committing pornea!" Even then it wouldn't prove it outright, since there is no ancient Greek word for "masturbation" and the person writing the story would have to use some word, and may have been exercising his creative license.

(December 1, 2012 at 10:18 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Same with the word that has been traditional translated as homosexual. That word isn't clear to many scholars anymore either.

And what word would that be exactly?

(December 1, 2012 at 10:23 pm)Daniel Wrote:

(December 1, 2012 at 10:21 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: Vincent stated that he had scientific proof of it being unhealthy. And he didnt.

Of course he doesn't. That would be like having scientific proof of sex being unhealthy.

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(December 1, 2012 at 10:18 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: There's actually a bit of controversy over the meaning of pornea. It's not clear anymore what it means exactly. The best translation of it I've heard is simply "sexual immorality."

That's not a good translation. It's a loose translation and completely wrong. Pornea does not mean anything to do with "morality" it has to do with sex acts, not with morals. "sexual deviants" would be closer to the meaning than "sexual immorality". Pornea would certainly not even include viewing pornography, because it doesn't concern itself with morality.

What sex acts are you thinking of? I'm not saying it means to include masturbation. It's a vague term that doesn't specify anything specifically apart from its immediate context. "Sexual immorality" could mean many things. Porneia literally means prostitution but its use suggests a less literal intent. In the way it's used, the word is best understood to be "doing something bad in a sexual sense" (whatever "bad" means).

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(December 1, 2012 at 10:18 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Same with the word that has been traditional translated as homosexual. That word isn't clear to many scholars anymore either.

And what word would that be exactly?

Two words actually: malakoi and arsenokoitai. The meaning of these words seems to be unclear and there are arguments that they don't have to do with homosexuality, at least in the way we think of homosexuality. Robert M. Price gives an overview of the debate among critical scholars over what the bible says on homosexuality at 23:10 here: http://www.thehumanbible.net/episode_007/

Yes, ok they're used in 1 Corinthians 6:9. The majority of scholars believe they translate to homosexuality (rather than the completely literal male prostitution). Arsenokoitai is not used anywhere else in the Bible. Romans 1:26-27 condemns homosexuality directly without the use of either word.

(December 2, 2012 at 12:05 am)Daniel Wrote: Yes, ok they're used in 1 Corinthians 6:9. The majority of scholars believe they translate to homosexuality (rather than the completely literal male prostitution). Arsenokoitai is not used anywhere else in the Bible. Romans 1:26-27 condemns homosexuality directly without the use of either word.

Majority opinion does not necessarily equal the correct opinion, especially on a issue that's relatively recent.

The Romans passage reading is also debatable.

It seems that you didn't listen to the audio file I sent because all of that is covered.

Not this again. So what? You still need evidence to assert your position. You can't prove a negative. If you want a more literal reading you have to show why the more literal reading makes more sense. Explain why arsenokoites means "male homosexual" in the context, when Paul could have used Porne instead, which means "prostitute". Even more damaging to your argument is the fact that Paul uses Porne twice in 1 Cor 6:15-16. Why the inconsistency?

(December 2, 2012 at 12:49 am)Daniel Wrote: Not this again. So what? You still need evidence to assert your position. You can't prove a negative. If you want a more literal reading you have to show why the more literal reading makes more sense. Explain why arsenokoites means "male homosexual" in the context, when Paul could have used Porne instead, which means "prostitute". Even more damaging to your argument is the fact that Paul uses Porne twice in 1 Cor 6:15-16. Why the inconsistency?

I'm not sure if you're paying attention to what I'm saying at all. That's not at all what I'm arguing.

Religion is so obsessed with sex. It's cute.

(December 2, 2012 at 12:56 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: I'm not sure if you're paying attention to what I'm saying at all. That's not at all what I'm arguing.

So you DON'T want 1 Cor 6:9 to be read more literally??

(December 2, 2012 at 1:05 am)Daniel Wrote:

(December 2, 2012 at 12:56 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: I'm not sure if you're paying attention to what I'm saying at all. That's not at all what I'm arguing.

So you DON'T want 1 Cor 6:9 to be read more literally??

I'm saying there are interesting arguments put forth by scholars that say that the chances of it actually meaning "homosexual" are low.

^ That's because the literal meaning of arsenokoites is "male prostitute". Again, if this is what Paul really means then why does he use porne just a couple of sentences later in the same letter?

I might just add that there is no Ancient Greek word for "homosexual" so how else would you expect Paul to form a coherent sentence forbidding the practise?